• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

Ledesma's rant regarding the photo thingie

Cruz_del_Sur

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 12, 2011
Messages
3,014
Country Flag

Argentina

Club or Nation

CASI

Bit of a rant, give me some rope here.

I just find this so incomprehensible i have to ask: is what Ledesma said so far off the mark that it crossed no one's mind? No one thought 'yeahh, this doens't look good, we need to try something else'?

You have a tournament with 4 teams. Not 20, 4. Ewveryone knows each other reasonably well. There's a promotional photoshoot in which only captains are involved. One captain in missing, do you take the pic?
I dont get it. I really don't.

Yeah, i understand there are commitments and sponsors. Other teams couldn't make it then and no picture was taken. The most telling thing, and this is what surprised me, actually worried me the most, was that as Ledesma pointed out everyone was talking about diversity, laughter, the lot, and no one asked 'hey, there's a team missing here, what happened?'. They were talking, actually bragging about diversity while they were simultaneously excluding the newest team in the competition. Define irony.

One of the Australian journos at the press conf saying something along the lines of 'things probably got lost in translation'. Are you bloody kidding me? He didn't know what the reason was, so instead of shutting the **** up, he thought, hey, let's shift the blame to these **** poor third worlders who cant even speak proper english...


Can you imagine an official TRC captains photoshoot without Kolisi or Savea? I seriously cannot. Even if i force myself to consider that possibility, i can already see the backlash coming. Tsunami size and probably including some racism-related conspiracy theory.
Again, no one picked this up (till Ledesma made the point, course)...

And some still cry foul when people call rugby an old boys club.


I know this will be labelled as unimportant, even irrelevant. I can even understand why.
I think to quite a few, it is not.
 

Kiwiwomble

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
4,138
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Otago

sorry, what happened, i dont actually know what incident you're referring too
 

Kiwiwomble

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
4,138
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Otago

Ok, i think im up to date now

Looks like SANZAAR and Rugby Australia have issued an apology, which is fair enough
 

TRF_stormer2010

Moderator
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 7, 2009
Messages
8,560
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

Stormers

Fair enough from Ledesma. Happy he got at least an apology. Not that I truly think it means anything but maybe it might be in back of mind in the future. Who knows.

To my mind there exists something of a pecking order in WR and Argentina are probably at the bottom of the tier 1 nations. How one addresses that precisely I couldn't say. My first suggestion would be to change the voting system. True, Argentina's vote counts for 3 like other tier 1 nations but it goes deeper than that.
 

Cruz_del_Sur

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 12, 2011
Messages
3,014
Country Flag

Argentina

Club or Nation

CASI

Looks like SANZAAR and Rugby Australia have issued an apology, which is fair enough
Is it?
I don't know what else I should expect to be honest, kind of uncharted territory, but this wasn't an oversight. This was a planned thing.
I refuse to believe, given the number of people it involves to make a production of that size, that no one, not a single person thought "hey, there are 4 teams in this competition, who's missing?".

This screams something more along the lines of "hey, Montoya is not here. Bummer, he represents Argentina thou, we can go ahead without him". And that, to my eyes, is unacceptable.
I would say the same thing if any other of the 3 captains was missing, which, let's be honest, would never be allowed to happen, obs.


To my mind there exists something of a pecking order in WR and Argentina are probably at the bottom of the tier 1 nations.
I see what you mean, but i am not sure you see what i mean.
Course there is, and i for one thought that was a problem that WR was trying to address, albeit slowly.
Argentina and (arguably) Japan are the best development stories WR can show.

The message could therefore be spun as follows: "Put in the hours, get results, and 15 years later we'll still snub you and treat you as second-tier members."

Either WR wants to continue being an old boys club where tier 2-3-4-5 have to beg for the scraps of the big boy's table or WR wants to develop rugby into a truly global sport. You can't have it both ways.

And again, I fail to see how this is not a minor scandal. The ENTIRE storyline they used was about diversity. A team from another continent, different culture and language, the newest addition to the competition is missing and they stick to that storyline.
No one picked it up until Ledesma mentioned it. That is a (bigger) story inside the story. No one gives a ****. They really don't.
Do a quick google search on how rugby websites are portraying the news now. QUite a few are almost labelling Ledesma's words as an angry rant caused by him being a sore loser.

I dont think Ledesma nor UAR are asking for anything extraordinary. I think they are only asking for a minimum, minuscule amount of empathy that, inexplicably, is missing.
Actually, it is hardly inexplicable, my bad. It is very easy to comprehend. And there lies the problem.
 

TRF_stormer2010

Moderator
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 7, 2009
Messages
8,560
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

Stormers

I totally agree that it is unacceptable. My own assumption prior to Ledesma coming out was that it was discussed with all parties concerned and was a best case scenario as one can understand logitical issues, especially these days. But the fact that it seems the UAR wasn't even approached is ridiculous.

My post was in essence relating my conception of this type of incident being symptomatic rather than a one-off incident.

EDIT: I think my English grammar failed me there but you get what I am intending to convey I am sure?
 

Kiwiwomble

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
4,138
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Otago

Is it?
I don't know what else I should expect to be honest, kind of uncharted territory, but this wasn't an oversight. This was a planned thing.
I refuse to believe, given the number of people it involves to make a production of that size, that no one, not a single person thought "hey, there are 4 teams in this competition, who's missing?".

This screams something more along the lines of "hey, Montoya is not here. Bummer, he represents Argentina thou, we can go ahead without him". And that, to my eyes, is unacceptable.
I would say the same thing if any other of the 3 captains was missing, which, let's be honest, would never be allowed to happen, obs.



I see what you mean, but i am not sure you see what i mean.
Course there is, and i for one thought that was a problem that WR was trying to address, albeit slowly.
Argentina and (arguably) Japan are the best development stories WR can show.

The message could therefore be spun as follows: "Put in the hours, get results, and 15 years later we'll still snub you and treat you as second-tier members."

Either WR wants to continue being an old boys club where tier 2-3-4-5 have to beg for the scraps of the big boy's table or WR wants to develop rugby into a truly global sport. You can't have it both ways.

And again, I fail to see how this is not a minor scandal. The ENTIRE storyline they used was about diversity. A team from another continent, different culture and language, the newest addition to the competition is missing and they stick to that storyline.
No one picked it up until Ledesma mentioned it. That is a (bigger) story inside the story. No one gives a ****. They really don't.
Do a quick google search on how rugby websites are portraying the news now. QUite a few are almost labelling Ledesma's words as an angry rant caused by him being a sore loser.

I dont think Ledesma nor UAR are asking for anything extraordinary. I think they are only asking for a minimum, minuscule amount of empathy that, inexplicably, is missing.
Actually, it is hardly inexplicable, my bad. It is very easy to comprehend. And there lies the problem.
oh course they should apologise, are you now saying they shouldnt?

My reading of event is this was the third or fourth time they had tried to arrange the photo with different captains unavailable at each one, He was invited to the other cancelled ones so i dont think this is some conspiracy, someone has given up trying to get all four, which is wrong and should have happened but i dont think it is some planned out thing to exclude Argentina
 

Cruz_del_Sur

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 12, 2011
Messages
3,014
Country Flag

Argentina

Club or Nation

CASI

oh course they should apologise, are you now saying they shouldnt?
Nah, i am not sure what i want to be honest. Just venting.
What i mean is that i find the apologies completely disingenuous. This wasn't an accident. There were plenty of people so it is just ludicrous to believe no one thought about it, and even after the fact, they only apologized after Ledesma brought it up, which strongly suggest they dont give a **** about the action itself, just about the consequences.

They created this situation in which whatever they do looks terrible. If they dont apologize they will understandably be criticized for that, but if they do they come across as hypocrites. I don't have an answer. That is why it is essential to prevent this sort of thing from happening in the first place. It aint that hard to be fair.

To be completely honest, i expected any or all of the three captains to stop this on its tracks and ask "what the **** are we doing?". But i guess they were too busy reading scripts about diversity and patting each other's backs, which prevented them from showing some bloody leadership when it mattered.

I suspect some will think this is a bridge too far and that asking that from them is unreasonable. I really, wholeheartedly think i am not.

My reading of event is this was the third or fourth time they had tried to arrange the photo with different captains unavailable at each one, He was invited to the other cancelled ones so i dont think this is some conspiracy, someone has given up trying to get all four, which is wrong and should have happened but i dont think it is some planned out thing to exclude Argentina
You are misreading my posts and the issue here. I agree, there wasn't a conspiracy to exclude Argentina. What did happen is that once Argentina couldn't be there, like others couldn't in the past, they decided to go ahead. They even told Ledesma that the picture wouldn't be taken nor published. They took the picture, published and added a video of the three captains laughing around.
What should they have done? Nothing. That's the entire point.

Rephrase: it's not that they purposely decided to exclude Arg, it's that when Arg couldn't make it (same as others in the past) they thought it was a good idea to go ahead. The message is pretty loud, Argentina is nice to have, but clearly not necessary when it comes to this.

What's WR's song again? World in Union? I guess that union matters only if you're NZ, RSA or Aus.
 

unrated

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,674
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

Sharks

The event was regrettable, something like this would happen. Don't think it's planned, that idea might border conspiracy levels.

Whoever arranged the photo, if it was SANZAAR they should apologize.

Maybe a different conspiracy theory may also be explored. What if it's a possibility that Argentine officials are to blame for not abiding by guidelines for when all players should be in the stadium, if so then SANZAAR should have records of official communication to all the unions to verify what the guidelines for this were.

Sorry, what's the official reason why Argentina was not there? Were they late?
 

Hmmmmmm

Academy Player
Joined
Dec 3, 2016
Messages
53
Country Flag

Australia

Club or Nation

Brumbies

They chose to fly to Townsville later than the other teams, then their flight was delayed. Sure the photos shouldn’t have been released, but they could have had one of their players there, albeit not the captain. Sanchez was apparently in Townsville but Arg declined the offer to use him instead. Conspiracy is stretching it.
 

Cruz_del_Sur

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 12, 2011
Messages
3,014
Country Flag

Argentina

Club or Nation

CASI

Don't think it's planned, that idea might border conspiracy levels.
I'm not saying there was a plan to leave Argentina out. Please don't put words in my mouth.
From my own post, before yours

I agree, there wasn't a conspiracy to exclude Argentina.

I am saying that after knowing Arg wasn't there, they decided to go ahead. That is, unfortunately, a fact.

Forget the idea. Let's focus on facts for a second.
- 3 captains could make it, one couldn't.
- Previously, other captains couldn't make it and the event was postponed.
- Knowing that one captain was not there, they consciously decided to go ahead, take an institutional picture and use the picture and video for promotion

The question that no one has answered to me yet is how on earth did all of this escape every single major rugby news show/outlet in three countries where rugby is a reasonably big sport. Or if it didnt, why did they decide not to talk about it then, and then changed their position and talked only about it after Ledesma talked about it.

I am not presenting a conspiracy theory, i am asking a couple of questions, which i think are not only fair but quite relevant. I'm also venting and ranting a bit, granted. I am angry and discontent.
Why is something that is clearly newsworthy (they did talk about it later) wasn't considered when it occurred? Saying "no one noticed" is clearly false. Representatives and captains of 3 RUs and Sanzaar were all aware of this, and none of them stopped it. That is at least 7 high profile individuals, all of which could have single-handedly stopped this, and decided not to.

Again, i don't see where the accident/miscommunication/error factors in. They had more than enough information to know this was wrong.
I mean, did Kolisi or Savea were somehow tricked into believing Montoya was there when the picture was there? Seriously.
Well, after knowing that Montoya wasn't there the three captains thought it was a good idea to take the pictures with a captain missing.

It's as if asking any of the three to step up and say "hey, this aint right, i'm not doing this" is asking too much from them. I staunchly disagree. That is the least i expect from them.


I can speculate, conspire if you will, that some might think "jesus man, it's not a big deal, let it go". It is a big deal to us.

What i learned from all of this is not that there is a conspiracy to exclude us. Let me repeat myself because several here have already tried to strawman me on this. NO!
What i learned is that they don't give a flying turd if we're there or not. Which in my book is arguably just as bad.
 

Kiwiwomble

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
4,138
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Otago

I'm not saying there was a plan to leave Argentina out. Please don't put words in my mouth.
i mean....you did say this.....so he's not putting words in your mouth,

I don't know what else I should expect to be honest, kind of uncharted territory, but this wasn't an oversight. This was a planned thing.
there may be something inferred that has been lost but you did say it was planned
 

Cruz_del_Sur

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 12, 2011
Messages
3,014
Country Flag

Argentina

Club or Nation

CASI

Ok, i see what you mean. I guess i expressed myself poorly or more likely maybe left a bit open to interpretation. My bad. I'll elaborate.
I didnt mean to say (dont think i said that, but fair enough) leaving Argentina out was a planned thing. What i said/meant was that, once the Kolisi, Savea and Hooper were there, it wasn't as if someone from outside the production area took a photo of the three with a tele lens and then uploaded it to twitter on his personal account. This was the result of a production team that, knowing Montoya wasnt there, consciously decided to make an official picture with the trophee and uploaded it as an institutional photo through their official social media accounts. What i mean by "plan/planned" was that this was no accident. I dont believe they wanted Montoya to be absent but once he wasnt there, there was a conscious decision to go ahead. It wasnt a split-second decision where the person in charge had to decide whether to go ahead and everything coming after that was inevitable.
I dont wanna split hairs on semantics and the definition of plan/planned. I assume what i meant is not crystal clear. If not, kindly let me know.

Ledesma (or maybe UAR, cant recall) was told that such picture would not be taken/distributed. Specifically. That promise was broken. We can sugar coat it the way we want, but that fact won't change.
Pouring salt instead of sugar into a coffee mug is an accident. This wasn't.
 

Kiwiwomble

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
4,138
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Otago

Ok, i see what you mean. I guess i expressed myself poorly or more likely maybe left a bit open to interpretation. My bad. I'll elaborate.
I didnt mean to say (dont think i said that, but fair enough) leaving Argentina out was a planned thing. What i said/meant was that, once the Kolisi, Savea and Hooper were there, it wasn't as if someone from outside the production area took a photo of the three with a tele lens and then uploaded it to twitter on his personal account. This was the result of a production team that, knowing Montoya wasnt there, consciously decided to make an official picture with the trophee and uploaded it as an institutional photo through their official social media accounts. What i mean by "plan/planned" was that this was no accident. I dont believe they wanted Montoya to be absent but once he wasnt there, there was a conscious decision to go ahead. It wasnt a split-second decision where the person in charge had to decide whether to go ahead and everything coming after that was inevitable.
I dont wanna split hairs on semantics and the definition of plan/planned. I assume what i meant is not crystal clear. If not, kindly let me know.

Ledesma (or maybe UAR, cant recall) was told that such picture would not be taken/distributed. Specifically. That promise was broken. We can sugar coat it the way we want, but that fact won't change.
Pouring salt instead of sugar into a coffee mug is an accident. This wasn't.
Yeah, you use the same word “planned” and said it was definitely planned and then said it wasn’t, and then accused someone of putting the word “planned” in your mouth…so I’m sure you can see how people might be confused

no ones saying it wasn’t an accident other than not telling them the rescheduled time, once only three of them have turned up they have decided to go ahead, which was wrong and they have apologised

if it makes you feel any better the only place I’ve actually seen the pic is in articles about the pic…and I follow all the relevant socials
 
Last edited:

Cruz_del_Sur

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 12, 2011
Messages
3,014
Country Flag

Argentina

Club or Nation

CASI

I used the word "plan" because that is the word used in pretty much every production event of that sort. A layman example: "Montoya is not here, what do we do, what's the plan?".
Any photoshoot (or production occurrence of this sort) requires a set of steps, a concatenation of events, that needs to be, for the lack of a better word, planned.
Set up, clothing, makeup, lighting, post-prod, etc.

Again, this was not the three captains accidentally crossing paths at the local joint while ordering chicken wings for their kids.

I can see how people might have been confused over the wording i used just as i am sure that people now have a better understanding of what i meant. If that is not the case, happy to elaborate.

There were a couple of ways of interpreting my phrase (that's on me) and you chose the cynical one,
 

Kiwiwomble

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
4,138
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Otago

Ok, I’m out, but for the record, I didn’t read it in a cynical way, just pointed out you had said it was a planned thing…so then claiming people were putting words in your mouth when they referred to that…is disingenuous
 

TRF_stormer2010

Moderator
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 7, 2009
Messages
8,560
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

Stormers

Ja, "decided upon" as opposed to "planned" might have been more correct language but I did get where you were coming from.

I can only speak for myself and say I just assumed it was't possible for Argentina to get a player there. Only after Ledesma came forward did I get it. As for the seriousness of the thing.. I'm trying to think how we would react if it was Kolisi who wasn't there. This is wild speculation of course but I'd think it would **** off a number of South Africans, Rassie, Nienaber or someone would say something but probably not much would come of it and it probably wouldn't do the rounds in foreign media. Pre Argentina joining SANZAR there was an actual conspiracy between Aus and NZ referees to "get the Yarpies". It was essentially laughed off as a bit of a joke. Don't think it actually made foreign media at all probably. Not that I would know. Nothing new here unfortunately.
 

Kiwiwomble

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
4,138
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Otago

Ja, "decided upon" as opposed to "planned" might have been more correct language but I did get where you were coming from.

I can only speak for myself and say I just assumed it was't possible for Argentina to get a player there. Only after Ledesma came forward did I get it. As for the seriousness of the thing.. I'm trying to think how we would react if it was Kolisi who wasn't there. This is wild speculation of course but I'd think it would **** off a number of South Africans, Rassie, Nienaber or someone would say something but probably not much would come of it and it probably wouldn't do the rounds in foreign media. Pre Argentina joining SANZAR there was an actual conspiracy between Aus and NZ referees to "get the Yarpies". It was essentially laughed off as a bit of a joke. Don't think it actually made foreign media at all probably. Not that I would know. Nothing new here unfortunately.
are you saying there was proof NZ and aussie refs were conspiring to make SA lose?
 

Latest posts

Top