• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

Leinster Talk

S

shazbooger

Guest
I know Tarbh doesnt have much time for this guy but I have to say I'm a fan. He's usually a bit smug for some people but he tells it as he see's it, and unfortunately he is usually right. I've never seen him this animated.

It's a long read, but well worth it. Pretty much sums up what most Leinster fans feel. I particularly love the "Leinster couldn't even pour **** out of a shoe with the instructions written on the heel" and the rousing finale at the end ............. "I just do not want to hear some of the players talking bullshit like 'there is a lot of hurting in that dressing room' or 'we've got to learn from our mistakes'. Last week was the week to learn from their mistakes but they didn't bother to turn up when a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity presented itself. It was a disgraceful, gutless, leaderless, spineless performance and one which embellishes the reputation they have all over Europe. "

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Rugby Analyst, Neil Francis - Leinster's lacklustre ladyboys Michael Cheika's side are in denial and, having failed to recognise their problems, they are all but out of the Heineken Cup

Down and heading out: Leinster's Chris Whittaker leaves the field after an appalling performance in Friday night's 18-15 defeat On Friday night one hour before kick-off in the Pool 2 match away to Castres I went into the kitchen to get myself a cup of tea. That's right, I watched the match from home unlike the 1,000 or so disillusioned souls who had ventured into the people's republic of Castres â€" it ain't a fun place. In my kitchen on the wall there is a lovely schilling circular clock that said 7 o'clock. Up at the wall above the door there is a wooden cuckoo clock without a cuckoo in it that said 6.55. The microwave oven told me that it was 7.03 and the CD player told me it was 7.06 â€" you wouldn't want to have obsessive compulsive disorder in my house. A simple thing to fix though â€" two minutes and all the clocks would be synchronised and ticking in harmony.

During the week Alan Gaffney went before the media and gave an assurance that Leinster's poor performance last Saturday at the Royal Dublin Society was really only down to improper depth and alignment. The Leinster backs do run flat lines but before the ball reaches them they showed an awful lot more depth, it's why so many passes went forward or to ground. Some simple adjustments during training would sort the problem out and with 75 per cent possession from almost all phases, all Leinster had to do was concentrate and focus on playing their natural game and hey presto.

They are now out of the Heineken Cup. As of 1 o'clock or maybe 1.05 or possibly 12.55 today the current state of affairs in Pool 2 is that Leinster have 15 points and Wasps have eight. The only thing at issue today is whether Wasps will garner a bonus point against Edinburgh. It's the second half of the year when Wasps decide to wake up and play rugby and I am certain that whatever was inflicted upon them in the RDS in October will be returned in spades to the ladyboys. Simple mathematics tells you then that Leinster will not have enough points and Wasps will win the group, a scandalous predicament.

Denial is a river in Egypt. It is also the state that Leinster are in. Problem recognition is the key. Leinster's two big wins from the first two matches are easily explained. Edinburgh are simply bad beyond belief and Wasps, well, typical of the mindset of most of these Leinster players, they produce a good performance in front of the entire Lions coaching staff. I'll lay a bet with you that none of this Leinster side will travel to South Africa in the summer. The only chance Leinster have is that the Galacticos still think they have a chance of going. It will have nothing to do with their collective want to win the Heineken Cup for their province.

So let's just see where they went wrong last Friday night against a side that was so dysfunctionally one-dimensional. How could a team like Leinster lose to a second-rate side of kick and chasers? I met Jeremy Davidson in the Burlington on the Friday night before the RDS game. The limit of their ambition for the following day was to tackle and keep the score down. He was fairly confident, despite all the difficulties, that they would win the return leg. Seventy-five per cent of the cause of the loss can be attributed to Leinster's inadequacies but Castres knew how to play them and though it was a desperately limited form of expression they knew how to beat them.

The most glaring deficiency was at the breakdown. Chris Masoe was masterful in the contact zone and to my count picked off eight balls which a Leinster ball carrier had taken into contact. The New Zealander played everything within the law and was just too determined and too clever for Leinster's back row.

Shane Jennings had the worst game I have ever seen him play. Maybe he is just coming back from injury but his current form and his form all season suggests that not only is he not up to the standard at international level but he is currently not good enough to play Heineken. He really does have to get his mind together. Elsom, too, for such a powerful runner and a prime athlete straight out of SANZA, lost the ball in contact more than I have ever seen him do so before. He was lazy in midfield and just didn't bother his arse at ruck time. Heaslip was too loose and too casual with or without the ball and his graph is shadowing that of the ISEQ index.

Consequently Leinster were bashing flat runners off slow ball and barely able to retain it due to lack of numbers getting into the ruck. Lionel Nallet and Joe Takori had a field day muscling Leinster players out of the ruck and it went from there. Was it lack of guile or lack of guts that led Leinster into that downward spiral? Leadership or even something resembling it was conspicuous by its absence.

Chris Whittaker who was close to being the worst player on the pitch in the RDS gave another shocking performance. He took less out of the ball but surely there must be some 22-year-old out there who can link and pass to a better standard than the Australian. Sexton's performance was an improvement on last week but two easy penalty misses and an unbelievable miss from his own try just killed Leinster.

It doesn't matter who you are playing against in France, every kickable kick has to be kicked. Sexton was binned at half-time. I'm not sure if I would agree with that but the thought was probably given to the fact that Leinster were listless and directionless and Contepomi, who so often has been the catalyst for change and impetus despite being ill for a month, would inject enthusiasm and confidence. He had the worst game I've ever seen him play and I would have thought that if Leinster were going to bring on Nacewa with 10 or 15 to go, out-half would have been where they should have put him.

O'Driscoll is clearly unfit and is only doing himself damage, even he could not reverse the psychological spin that Leinster had gotten themselves into. Leo Cullen is a big loss but the guy they really miss is Keith Gleeson. It's only when they are missing that you realise how good they were in the first place.

All the usual failings came back to haunt them. Crucial overthrows to the back of the line, concession of field position for crooked 10-year-old concessions at the breakdown, particularly Jennings in the 42nd and 56th minutes, going off their feet from nearly every last single forward when it was obvious that it was referee David Pearson's favourite offence. When Leinster were trying to get back in the game in the 60th minute Contepomi's kick-off was hooked so badly it nearly defied description. Leinster's kicking became worse as the match wore on, nobody chased, nobody gave any direction as to what was required, where and how to kick the ball â€" this only gave encouragement to Castres with every simple concession of the ball.

Toner, after supporting Contepomi, got tackled and turned the ball over almost as if he was giving the ball away â€" it just got worse and worse. With a few minutes left Jackman again overthrew a long ball to the back with a gargantuan Toner sitting redundant in the middle of the lineout. Leinster managed to bail themselves out of trouble with two minutes to go with a free-kick on their 22. All they needed was field position and composure. O'Driscoll kicked the ball but missed touch by at least 8 metres â€" it was that bad.

Castres kept their nerve, played with tenacity of purpose, kept the ball in the Leinster half and made their tackles. They didn't really have to work that hard. Leinster couldn't even pour **** out of a shoe with the instructions written on the heel.

I just do not want to hear some of the players talking bullshit like 'there is a lot of hurting in that dressing room' or 'we've got to learn from our mistakes'. Last week was the week to learn from their mistakes but they didn't bother to turn up when a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity presented itself. It was a disgraceful, gutless, leaderless, spineless performance and one which embellishes the reputation they have all over Europe. Every single player will have to examine his conscience and see is there any way out of the situation they have put themselves in. Management too had better realise that this team cannot perform as badly as it has heretofore, in particular Alan Gaffney and Jono Gibbs had better shape up or ship out. Once again the sniggering from Munster will be just unbearable.
[email protected][/b]
 
No doubt he does have some funny moments but his analysis is so far off the mark it's untrue.

Thanks to Wasps not getting the bonus point win we're now in a position to go to Twickenham only needing to get out of there with a bonus point. Wasps are incapable of getting 4 tries in a match at the moment and given their current form will struggle as much as Leinster to get the win on the final day in Castres. So 6 points from the final 2 games is still a distinct possibility and it's certainlmy not beyond the realms of probability that we may even get the win at Twickenham.

Still though that doesn't excuse the fact that the fundamental problems still exist for Leinster and Cheika seems incapable of resolving them.

For me the crux of the problem is Whitaker, his service is woeful and his constant crabbing gives defences much more time, I know he's injured at the moment but it was a dreadful call from Cheika to let Willis go to Ulster. At least I agree with Franno on that score.

I banged the Keith Gleeson drum for longer than I care to remember and we do miss him but I'm not going to castigate Jennings for a poor performance when so many of the regulars who didn't have the excuse of returning from injury had a howler.
 
And he's wrong about the sniggering from Munster - it's not unbearable at all!

Yes, Whittaker is annoying - always has been.

Elsom was a disappointment, but Heaslip even more. The crack about the ISEQ was pretty good, although the **** in the shoe actually made me laugh.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Dec 15 2008, 08:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
And he's wrong about the sniggering from Munster - it's not unbearable at all!

Yes, Whittaker is annoying - always has been.

Elsom was a disappointment, but Heaslip even more. The crack about the ISEQ was pretty good, although the **** in the shoe actually made me laugh.[/b]

I've been happy with Elsom, Heaslip has been playing ****** though. Sean O'Brien is looking classy whenever he plays though.

I never snigger at Leinster, I always cheer on all them Irish teams, and the Welsh teams (but not Wales as a nation for some reason). I think Leinster can win in twikkers if they get they're focking act together roysh?
 
All valid points. For me the line that really hit home and frustrated me most of all was "gutless, leaderless, spineless performance and one which embellishes the reputation they have all over Europe". The thing is I can handle a poor performance or two from a player, but when it spreads through the team you have to look at the mental side of their game.

The facts are that regardless of how badly Munster play as individuals, they never collectively switch off in the way that Leinster continue to do year after year. This result would never have happened to a Munster side. Leaderless? yes. Gutless? yes. Spineless? yes. Deserving of a public article like this? Most f***ing definately yes.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Dec 16 2008, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
All valid points. For me the line that really hit home and frustrated me most of all was "gutless, leaderless, spineless performance and one which embellishes the reputation they have all over Europe". The thing is I can handle a poor performance or two from a player, but when it spreads through the team you have to look at the mental side of their game.

The facts are that regardless of how badly Munster play as individuals, they never collectively switch off in the way that Leinster continue to do year after year. This result would never have happened to a Munster side. Leaderless? yes. Gutless? yes. Spineless? yes. Deserving of a public article like this? Most f***ing definately yes.[/b]

I think though with Franno writing this type of article people don't really pay much attention, it's needs every journalist to be writing in as scathing a tone for the message to hit home. Problem is though when it comes to press conferences and interviews most of these journalists are too spineless to ask a proper tough question, but they're more than happy to go on tv as a pundit and let rip, why the double standards?
 
well this article has certainly struck a nerve with Leinster who seem to have thrown their toys out of the pram by refusing to do post match interviews with Setanta following the Ulster match 2 days ago.

Who the **** does Cheika think he is behaving like this, Leinster were **** in Castres and it deserved to be said but if he's reacting like that over an article from a washed up hasbeen who contributed **** all to Irish rugby and doesn't have a huge amount of respect to begin with then he really should f*** off and let someone else take over.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Dec 29 2008, 03:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
well this article has certainly struck a nerve with Leinster who seem to have thrown their toys out of the pram by refusing to do post match interviews with Setanta following the Ulster match 2 days ago.

Who the **** does Cheika think he is behaving like this, Leinster were **** in Castres and it deserved to be said but if he's reacting like that over an article from a washed up hasbeen who contributed **** all to Irish rugby and doesn't have a huge amount of respect to begin with then he really should f*** off and let someone else take over.[/b]
I agree that Cheika is throwing his rattle out of his pram by refusing the speak to Setanta. Francis is a clown. He's a poor man's Stephen Jones which is saying something. To act so childish over the comments of a fool like Francis beggars belief.

What I take some issue with is your assertion that Cheika really should f*** off and let someone else take over if he behaves like this. In my opinion Cheika has done an unbelieveably good job as Leinster coach. Keep in mind the wasteland Declan Kidney left upon his departure. The current Irish coach's regime led to the departure of Shane Byrne, Aidan McCullen, Leo Cullen, Shane Jennings, David Holwell and Victor Costello along with a few squad players. That's the heart ripped out of the pack and the leader of the backline gone in one fell swoop. That's the job he left an unproven coach in Cheika to inherit.

Cheika took over a rudderless Leinster and turned them into a Heineken Cup semi finalist despite being stuck with a pair of clapped out props (Green and Corrigan), two useless 2nd rows foisted upon him (Byrnes and Williams), a backpacker at blindside (Jowitt) and revolving door worth of scrumhalves, none of whom could hold down the position (O'Riordan, O'Meara, Easterby). He's overseen the transformation of the team, bringing the likes of Kearney, Fitzgerald, Heaslip, Sexton and Healy into the international squad. This year he's doing a fine job developing O'Brien and Toner as future internationals. He's helped turn Bernard Jackman from a plodder into a top quality provincial hooker. His development of talent has been outstanding. He's brought a league ***le to Leinster. He's brought world class players like Elsom and vdLinde to the team. He saw the team had a porous defence, corrected it and turned it into one of the best in Europe - only 9 tries have been conceded in 12 games this year including one intercept and one penalty try, neither of which are the fault of inept defending. Major credit must goes to Kurt McQuilkin for the job he has done since Cheika gave him that task. He's also seen average attendances triple during his short reign.

Yes there have been problems. Concession of needless penalties must be addressed. Scrumhalf remains a joke. It's not as though Cheika hasn't recognised this though - he attempted to bring Eoin Reddan in during the summer. In hindsight letting Cillian Willis go has been a poor decision but based upon his play last year, Willis didn't deserve a new contract. Alan Gaffney has yet to make any sort of impact on the backline although people are too quick to pass judgement. What coach could cope with injuries to players of the calibre of D'arcy, O'Driscoll, Contepomi and Nacewa for chunks of the season, coupled with a loss of form of Horgan and Sexton? How was Gaffney supposed to develop a coherent backline when there were a couple of enforced personnel and positional changes each and every week?

Injuries now seem to be clearing up. Despite a lacklustre start to the season (bar a couple of performances), Leinster have destiny in their own hands in the Heineken Cup where they top their group and are only 6 points behind the Magners League leaders. They face the bottom two sides at home in the next 2 games which gives them a massive opportunity to close that gap. All is not well but it's far from the doom and gloom picture that some people paint.

Cheika deserves more than to put up with ill informed comments like those of Neil Francis, George Hook and Jim Glennon. Constructive criticism is fine (the sort that Gerry Thornley and Conor O'Shea provide and which Tony Ward sometimes chimes in with) but a lot of the stuff relating to Leinster is clichéed bile. While it's fair to say that Leinster aren't as good now as they were during Matt Williams' final year in charge, he has done a fabulous job considering the hand he was dealt. Things will continue to improve as long as the Australian has the job. I hope he's kept around for the foreseeable future.
 
Decent defence of Cheika, but every season they don't just lose - they fail.

My view is that Leinster can't do it, so the players need to get off the pot and go elsewhere.

But every cup season has its own momentum - they're in pole position, so criticism suspended.

Not holding my breath, but maybe this time ...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Dec 30 2008, 12:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Decent defence of Cheika, but every season they don't just lose - they fail.

My view is that Leinster can't do it, so the players need to get off the pot and go elsewhere.

But every cup season has its own momentum - they're in pole position, so criticism suspended.

Not holding my breath, but maybe this time ...[/b]
If failure constitutes not winning the Heineken Cup then you're correct. However if that's the case only 1 team each year have a good season. Look at a snapshot of each of his first three seasons:

Year 1:
Poor squad yet Heineken Cup semi finalist and 2nd in the Magners League with just a late David Humphreys drop goal keeping them from the ***le. Development of Rob Kearney and Jamie Heaslip.

Year 2:
A step backwards yet still made the knock out stages of the Heineken Cup and finished 3rd in the ML. In with a shot of taking home the ML on the last day, finishing just 3 points off the top. Development of Bernard Jackman and Luke Fitzgerald.

Year 3:
Poor Heineken Cup campaign yet they picked up excellent wins over Leicester (GP finalist later that year) and Toulouse (Top 14 winner). Waltzed through the ML. Bolstered the squad significantly. Shored up the defense. Development of Sexton and Healy.

Year 4 to date:
Huge injury problems. Leadership deficit. Patchy form yet top of their group in the HC and 3rd in the ML where they're just 6 points off the top. Outstanding defense. Development of Toner and O'Brien.

In my opinion, Leinster are currently short of a leader or two, something which will in part be addressed by the return of Leo Cullen. That's their biggest challenge this season. Cheika has had success in his 3 1/2 years to date - it just so happens that his success has coincided with the most successful period in Munster rugby history. Removing Munster from the equation and judging Leinster solely on their own overall performance over the last few seasons, Cheika has done a terrific job. The future's bright as long as he has the job.
 

Latest posts

Top