Lions tour dates are out

[Teh Mite]

To his credit, Flutey did a much better job then his peers. For what that's worth.

 

[Seaton]

To his credit, Flutey did a much better job then his peers. For what that's worth.

Indeed, playing ability wise the selectors made the correct decision to pick him.

But on he grounds of his selection, thon Libyan Lockerbie bomber should have been given a pension by the UK government.

 

[Teh Mite]

no Argument there

On the locks point... Lol, if O'Connell goes on tour that'll show that Lions selection policy is equally corrupt as England over the past decade.

 

[big ginger 8]

Maybe starting in the tests yes that would be bad but I'd bring him for his leadership. Also he's in the form of his life and Shaw was older on the last tour.

 

[Murph316]

Does anyone think B O'D will be selected? and who would/wouldn't you bring?

 

[McTallshort]

If POC is playing well for Ireland and Munster dont see the harm in him going if the coaches see him as part of the game plan same with Bod.

As for the comments around Flutey I find that a bit rich when Nathan Hines isnt exactly Robert the bruce and doesn't he play his rugby in France?

 

[Murph316]

As an Irish man I have always found P O'C very overated, he is a good leader and all, but he doesnt get around the park, he doesn't make breaks and rarely breaks the game like with his dazzling pick and go's. Now dont get me wrong he is a good player, just not a world class player in my own opinion. Leo Cullen and Bob Casey were the best Irish 2nd rows for the past 5 years but didn get a look in cause they played in England. Going a bit off topic there, sorry, I would bring P O'C to have in the dressing room and simply because there arent many great second rows in these 4 nations.

 

[McTallshort]

Thats harsh! Think he is an outstandingly hard working 2nd row with good line out qualities. People often say he goes 'missing' but forget his job is graft not glam. He reminds me in playing terms of Ben Kay, dont see a great deal until you look at his tackle count, clear-out rate and line out takes and find they are normally the highest in the team. The difference being POC is also a fantastic leader and great tailsman, I only wish he was English.

 

[Murph316]

It might be on the harsh side, and trust me I know his job is graft (I play tight 5) but I stand my ground about Leo Cullen and Bob Casey being better players. Would you have swapped POC for Simon Shaw? both at their best?

 

[Seaton]

As for the comments around Flutey I find that a bit rich when Nathan Hines isnt exactly Robert the bruce and doesn't he play his rugby in France?

Yaaaaaaasssssss min!!! I love the mentality!

He is criticizing one of us, but he gots a player to be criticized to! The mere fact that he was not the topic of discussion and thus that the person in question did not mention 'his player' makes him a hypocrite!


Do you support one of the Old Firm by any chance?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

no Argument there

On the locks point... Lol, if O'Connell goes on tour that'll show that Lions selection policy is equally corrupt as England over the past decade.

I've seen reports saying him and BOD should be in the starting test team

Wwwwhhhhhhaaaaaaaaatttt??

I know Shaw toured when he was 63, but come on....

 

[McTallshort]

Yaaaaaaasssssss min!!! I love the mentality!

He is criticizing one of us, but he gots a player to be criticized to! The mere fact that he was not the topic of discussion and thus that the person in question did not mention 'his player' makes him a hypocrite!

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. fine criticize Fluteys selection but also include Hines selection in that criticism.

No not interested in wendyball

 

[McTallshort]

It might be on the harsh side, and trust me I know his job is graft (I play tight 5) but I stand my ground about Leo Cullen and Bob Casey being better players. Would you have swapped POC for Simon Shaw? both at their best?

Yes to be honest, "at their best" is the reason why. People often point to Shaws exclusion of the England team being down to Martin Johnson being ahead of him in selection but that isnt quite true. You also had Danny Grewcock and Gareth Archer being picked ahead of him on more than one occasion. The fact was until he hit his 30s and grew up a bit Simon Shaw was a bit inconsitant and a bit lazy not something you could level at POC.

 

[Seaton]

Yes, I do not agree with the granny rule entirely, nor that someone like Visser or Hines can simply pitch up in a country for a few years and then play for them.


However the point of my attempt at trolling is that (as you made no attempt as to-otherwise) you simply believed I was a hypocrite simply because I didn't mention any 'Scottish' players, when the discussion being made was solely about Riki Flutey.

 

[McTallshort]

Yes, I do not agree with the granny rule entirely, nor that someone like Visser or Hines can simply pitch up in a country for a few years and then play for them.


However the point of my attempt at trolling is that (as you made no attempt as to-otherwise) you simply believed I was a hypocrite simply because I didn't mention any 'Scottish' players, when the discussion being made was solely about Riki Flutey.

That is true I did but then I do ask why I am defending a Kiwi who plays for Wasps anyway

 

[Peat]

The true test is whether a player from Scotland, Ireland, Wales or England could make the starting XV of all three other unions. Now, in my eyes, Gray would pair up with O´Connell for Ireland, Lawes for England and Wyn Jones for Wales. Evans would pair up with Bowe for Ireland, Ashton for England and North for Wales. I´d think these are the contenders and there is no chance two are better than Gray. 2 years to go mind you..... Sure, its my opinion and I know many don´t rate Max Evans so highly. If the guy were not Scottish he´d be rated higher. He´s the victim of having a defensive game plan and, too often, Dan Parks at flyhalf. Vs Los Pumas, in dreadful rain, Evans really moved about and had he had Priestland, Hook or O´Gara at pivot he would have some serious damage. Scotland´s game plan is not so complicated to defend against. I am nto kidding when I saw that I saw Luciano Orquera moving about far more to feed his runners and danger man in the World Cup.

Gray will, in no time, be spoken of as the Parisse or Clever of Scotland. I watched him in the stadium at non-stop for 60 minutes and the guy is really good. Something that sux about tv is the limited viewing as in person you can watch the player so much better - Gray has gas.... as we say in Brazilian Portuguese. Wyn-Jones, O´Connell are into their 30´s. I´d be surprized if Richie is not starting every international match for the Lions. Many players look good because of their team - so many players have looked good at the Crusaders. The lattest being Robbie Fruean - just aweful for the Barbarians. If Gray played for Munster, Clermont or the Warratahs he´d be considered better just bacause of his team. It works this way... sadly.

There's no denying that players' reputations are dragged down slightly by playing for Scotland, who don't give their best players a chance to shine, and I certainly wouldn't rule out either Evans (really English though) or Gray as potential Lions test starters.

But I wouldn't play Evans ahead of Earls or Trimble for Ireland, I wouldn't play him ahead of Sharples for England and I wouldn't play him ahead of ... actually, he might worm into my Wales side now that Williams has retired. That presumes Halfpenny stays at full-back and Byrne on the bench. Max Evans is a useful player but I don't think he'd make my EPS full stop. As for Gray, he is clearly a fantastic prospect and athlete, but for my liking he doesn't do enough hard work. He has a touch of the showpony about him. I might start him for England or Ireland, but I wouldn't start him ahead of Bradley Davies for Wales - or for that matter I suppose Charteris, which I still can't quite believe I'm saying, but its the truth of my eyes.

About point two... thats the way it should be. Unless we are talking about players who moved when they were children. Seeing Maori´s who went to England in their 20´s play for the Lions is utterly wrong. Its like getting France to wear kilts and Argentina to do the haka. The Lions are damaged by having these mercenaries and how they can even be there is just bizzare considering it is the power of four.

Really? Brothers shouldn't be able to play for the same national team because one was born in a different country? Bearing in mind that Max Evans was born in England, not Scotland, they both went to an English school, they're just as Scottish as each other?

To the best of my knowledge, both of Heaslip's parents are Irish citizens and he was born there while his father was stationed in Israel, both of Sharples' parents are English and he was born while his father was stationed in HK and O'Gara's dad was working at a university in the states at the time. Certainly O'Gara's dad was Irish. I don't know at which point the three moved back home but I don't see how the right of any of them to play for their country should be questioned simply by an accident of birth. Should we penalise the child of every British serviceman born while their parents were stationed overseas? It would be ludicrous.

I agree that seeing Flutey there was a little strange but there is a huge and yawning chasm between players like the three mentioned and Riki Flutey. Try and place the gap in the middle and I can gurantee you will end up cutting off players with nigh identical rights to play for a country as someone who did make it. The current IRB eligibility rules are far too lax, I'll be the first to say that, but the answer isn't dictating to people what their nationality is in an incredibly draconian measure that takes no measure of a country's culture or a person's identity.

 

[Saintjay]

That is true I did but then I do ask why I am defending a Kiwi who plays for Wasps anyway

Because Fluety qualified through residency, and as much as people dislike it those are the rules the IRB have.

If he had qualified for, Wales or Scotland would they have ignored him, proberly not.

I just hate the fact everyone seems to think that it is only England that field teams from the U.N. When at times Wales and Scotland have been equaly bad.

As far as I am aware England have never fielded players who did qualify some how unlike Shane Howarth etc.

 

[Peat]

Because Fluety qualified through residency, and as much as people dislike it those are the rules the IRB have.

If he had qualified for, Wales or Scotland would they have ignored him, proberly not.

I just hate the fact everyone seems to think that it is only England that field teams from the U.N. When at times Wales and Scotland have been equaly bad.

As far as I am aware England have never fielded players who did qualify some how unlike Shane Howarth etc.

They don't field teams from the UN, they field teams from England...

Here fishie fishie

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Zing!


Can we try not to turn this into yet another argument about players playing for countries they weren't born in - pretty much every team does it. That's that.

 

[Saintjay]

They don't field teams from the UN, they field teams from England...

Here fishie fishie

Yeah lol, the whole point of the Lions is united nations I guess