Loosehead Prop advice please!

[Big Fella]

Hi All,

just to give a bit of background, I am 26 and have been playing rugby for a grand total of 2 months. I play for my local team at LH, I am 6'3'' and 140kg (believe it or not I can get around the pitch well)

Obviously I am pretty inexperienced, but I am enjoying the position.
What would you guys say is the most valuable advice for me in regards to scrummaging?

To be honest I hold my own against big tightheads, but struggle against the smaller ones who can get really low.



The second piece of advice I am after is with regard to recovery.
The day after a game my neck is so stiff I can barely move my head! I don't experience pain in the game.

Is this normal for a (new) prop? will this improve as I get stronger? Or do I need to prepare better?


Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks in advance

 

[TRF_Olyy]

While I can't help with your questions, being a back, just wanted to welcome you to the forum

There's a few props on here, so hopefully one will be along to help out soon

 

[big ginger 8]

As part of your set up stand with your feet a shoulders width apart and square. Flex your knees and your ass (like an RDL) then bend from your hips. Keep your back straight and level then luck up. That should get you in a powerful position. Get your head under his sternum and buckle it. Keep a long bind. If hes squat you can try illegally to drop and push your self off the ground up to him. Look at Tendai Matawaria for a good example. Or just try drive through. You'll usually be heavier and am guessing your pretty strong so just try blitz him.

As for your neck are you streching it properly before and after? After a particuallary hard day it may be slightly stiff for a day or so, Hopefully stretching properly should stop it but you just have to live with it .

 

[big ginger 8]

Cant edit look. Oops.

 

[Big Fella]

thanks for the advice, just looked up tendai mtawaria, and trawled through a few videos, he is an animal!

Who is else is good to look up with regard to good scrummaging technique? I have a game saturday and if anyone is interested I will report back.


I will be a bit more thorough in my stretching and hopefully Il start to recover quicker

 

[big ginger 8]

Was suggesting "the beast" for his helpful illegal technique! Tomas Domingo would be one of the best loosehead scrummagers but different body type. You have similar stats to Soane Tong'uiha so he'd probably be the best to watch. Doesn't actually have great technique but just blasts through. Guthro Steenkamp would also be good.

Good luck with your match and let us know how you get on.

 

[nickdnz]

Basically, being the same height but about 20kg smaller, I know more or less what your problem is. Basically it will be just getting low enough. The easiest way to remedy this is getting someone to video you in a scrum during a game. You should be able to see where you need to be. The smaller guys are often hard beause they've got their technique right to be competitive.

The easiest way in general to improve, is make sure the hooker sets to height of the scrum, so if he gets low, you have to make sure his arm is as close to horizonal as possible. On the calls, on crouch bind and sink, on touch touch, on pause you use the oppertunity to sink as low as you can safetly and everyone needs to retighten their bind and on engage try and be the first man their. If you are strong, you should always be able to dominate from a good position, but you will always struggle to extend fully, quickly, because of your height.

The other thing which always has to be emphasized, is make sure your second row know what they are doing and don't treat it like a gap. Basically I've always played with light second rows, and they essentially always make you look worse than you are as so much of your power has to come from them, both on the engage and throughout.


In terms of recovery, basic stretches can go some way to helping, but i also find peering up with another tight forwards before the game and going through push excersized to help. Sometimes the problem can be you need to build up your sholders and neck through weight training, but more often than not it's because you've just had 800kgs+ pushing against you. I almost always feel a bit stiff and get marks and so on around my sholders. Just part of the glory of being in the front row.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

SMaller props getting upder you is a concern (as i use to do when i played club at only 5'10) if you can get your technique right you can be just as much trouble for them.

Whilst you have to watch out for them popping you, you can make them colapse. keeping your feet (get the right boots and that will help) keeping a good bind with your rake (so they cant get between you) and a straight back and you can get on top of them. If you can keep them from popping you then the next thing to give should be there footing.

also, if we're talking about...."tips", i played LH before moving to rake and i use to grap the TH's binding wrist when we went to bind. It automatically puts them off to have their arm pinned to their side and they cant use it to lever you up. if you have a bad enough ref they may even ping them for not binding

maybe not something you want to do all the time as is a bit of bad form but if they are screwing you it is a good way to level the playing field.

 

[smartcooky]

Hi All,

just to give a bit of background, I am 26 and have been playing rugby for a grand total of 2 months. I play for my local team at LH, I am 6'3'' and 140kg (believe it or not I can get around the pitch well)

Obviously I am pretty inexperienced, but I am enjoying the position.
What would you guys say is the most valuable advice for me in regards to scrummaging?

To be honest I hold my own against big tightheads, but struggle against the smaller ones who can get really low.



The second piece of advice I am after is with regard to recovery.
The day after a game my neck is so stiff I can barely move my head! I don't experience pain in the game.

Is this normal for a (new) prop? will this improve as I get stronger? Or do I need to prepare better?


Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks in advance

As part of your set up stand with your feet a shoulders width apart and square. Flex your knees and your ass (like an RDL) then bend from your hips. Keep your back straight and level then luck up. That should get you in a powerful position. Get your head under his sternum and buckle it. Keep a long bind. If hes squat you can try illegally to drop and push your self off the ground up to him. Look at Tendai Matawaria for a good example. Or just try drive through. You'll usually be heavier and am guessing your pretty strong so just try blitz him.

As for your neck are you streching it properly before and after? After a particuallary hard day it may be slightly stiff for a day or so, Hopefully stretching properly should stop it but you just have to live with it .

Big ginger's advice is the best I have seen on here so far.


Practice getting into this position...

...until it feels the most comfortable thing in the world. Your centre of weight needs to be down though the middle of your feet (see white line and arrow). Standing like this, you should NOT feel as if you are about to either tip backwards or topple forwards. You should be so well balanced that bringing your outside (left) bind arm forward will ever so slightly start you leaning forward.

Have a look at this video from RugbySmart. It is aimed at younger players, so just ignore the naff cartoon-guy. There are some good tips here from All Blacks scrum guru Mike Cron

http://www.coachingtoolbox.co.nz/rugbysmart/scrummaging/

As for your neck being sore, yes that's normal, but it should improve and be less sore for less time during recovery as you get stronger, but you could also do yourself a big favour by undertaking strength building exercises for your neck. You local gym may have a programme specifically designed for this.

Also, it would not hurt to consult a specialist scrum coach if you have access to one.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

My last propping experience dates over 10 years and in U-14's, so I mat be very wrong (please, other posters, let us know if I'm bs-ting). It seems to me that your complexion is more suited for TH prop. Looseheads usually push from down up, trying to prevent the scrum from collapsing, while THs just worry about going forward - it's the opposite LH's job to keep the scrum up.
The wisest thing anyone has said in this thread so far, though, is that you should consult a scrummaging specialist if you have access to one. Or ask your coach.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I had chronic neck problems after a car accident, and what really helped me was these Rubber elastic bands you can use at gyms. Some gyms have stretch classes which will be an easy way to help you see what to do...

Basically what I had to do was to Stand up straight with your shoulders back, and then tilt your head down as far as you can (If you're stiff, you'll immediately feel the soreness increasing), then take the elastic band and put it over the back of your head, as if you're putting on sunglasses on, but at the back of your head, then firmly pull down the elastic with both hands on either side next to your chest. when it's tight, pull the one side down and the other side up, which will in effect make your head go sideways as if you're saying no, while still looking down...

Within 3 weeks of doing this, my pain was completely gone, and whenever my neck is sore or strained i just do this for about 2 minutes, then I'm good to go...

 

[frontrowsupremacy]

I would agree that you might find it easier at 3, I'm a small prop myself and hated scrumming against bigger guys. It's going to be hard to push someone of your weight, so having you as the tighthead may be more benificial for the scrum. The loosehead is generally more of a disruptive scrummager, and suits smaller props better as they find it easier to get into the sternum. As a tighthead your main concern would be stopping this, but as a man of your size if someone gets underneath you they might not have the strength to push you back anyway. If you stay at loosehead you'll soon learn that you prove your worth on opposition ball - Hold yourself on your own scrum but concentrate on being as disruptive as possible on the opposition put-in, if you can get low enough to get your head underneath someones chest, then drive upwards and towards the hooker, you'll put anyone back.

Body posistion is vital regardless of where you play in the front row, as low as possible with a straight back, making sure your shoulders stay above your hips. This gives you the strongest, most stable body posistion to scrummage from. Remember, you're going to have a hell of a force on you in every scrum, so staying safe (Straigjt back, not dropping your shoulders/head) is the biggest priority.

 

[smartcooky]

The iRB have just opened a new "Strength and Conditioning" website

http://www.irbsandc.com/

You might find something useful there.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

The loosehead is generally more of a disruptive scrummager, and suits smaller props better as they find it easier to get into the sternum.

Its funny how things change, when i first strated playing we were always coached the other way around, the bigger prop played LH as they didn't have the support of load on both shoulders so someone who could hold it on one shoulder was prefer. this carried on to the smaller prop laying at TH in an attempt to get in and under their rake.

I guess professionalism has enabled a closer examination of positions...or we were just wrong!

 

[smartcooky]

Its funny how things change, when i first strated playing we were always coached the other way around, the bigger prop played LH as they didn't have the support of load on both shoulders so someone who could hold it on one shoulder was prefer. this carried on to the smaller prop laying at TH in an attempt to get in and under their rake.

I guess professionalism has enabled a closer examination of positions...or we were just wrong!

Jabby

I don't know what your age is, but it sounds like you started playing late 1980's early 1990's. I agree with what you say

One possible reason is that the monkey business almost always went on the feeding side's tight head side, because the referee almost never went to that side of the scrum; they used to stay on the feeding team's LH side.

On top of that, the touch judges were not allowed to call in what they saw.

Those were the days mate!!!

 

[Kiwiwomble]

that would be exactly when i started, a little bit of a late bloomer being in my early teens.

I love hearing commentators talk about the "Dark arts of scrumaging", they dont get up to anywhere as much as we did

You might know SC, have "scrumaging" injuries actualy dropped much since they started fiddling with the rules and problems stopped being sorted out at the bottom of a ruck/scrum?

 

[smartcooky]

that would be exactly when i started, a little bit of a late bloomer being in my early teens.

I love hearing commentators talk about the "Dark arts of scrumaging", they dont get up to anywhere as much as we did

You might know SC, have "scrumaging" injuries actualy dropped much since they started fiddling with the rules and problems stopped being sorted out at the bottom of a ruck/scrum?

The stats show a drop in serious spinal injuries since the beginning of the "managed engagement", i.e. crouch touch etc, but the rate of the less serious injuries such as calf & knee strains etc remains unchanged. However, there were other things that were brought in shortly beforehand that may have had an impact too, for example, the requirement in Law for STE (suitably trained and experienced) Props & Hookers. Its really hard to quantify which measure had the most effect.

Interestingly, the later change in the managed engagement from "Crouch & Hold... Engage" to "Crouch - Touch - Pause - Engage", which was made to lower the neck injury rate and decrease the rate of scrum resets, has done virtually nothing in either regard, the stats on those remain virtually unchanged.

 

[Big Fella]

Thank you everyone for your replies, they have given me lots to look at and think about. I know I may be physically more suited to tighthead, but I do enjoy playing at loose, plus I want to be powerful AND have my technique sound. I guess that's just going to take a while though!

However, there were other things that were brought in shortly beforehand that may have had an impact too, for example, the requirement in Law for STE (suitably trained and experienced) Props & Hookers. Its really hard to quantify which measure had the most effect.

Out of interest, what is classed as suitably, trained and qualified? (just thinking with regard to my lack of experience!)

Thanks again everyone

 

[lhprop1]

As part of your set up stand with your feet a shoulders width apart and square. Flex your knees and your ass (like an RDL) then bend from your hips. Keep your back straight and level then luck up. That should get you in a powerful position.

I disagree with this. The loosehead should start with the inside (right) foot slightly back. This puts you in a much better power position than if your feet are parallel. When you tackle someone or when you jump, you rarely do so with your feet square. The same should apply to the loosehead position. It puts you in a much better postion to engage more powerfully. Immediately after the engage, then you square up your feet and take the ground that you've pushed the other guy off of.

When you start with your feet square, all you can do is lean forward. You then have to pick up one foot and be unbalanced for a split second to gain any ground. Starting with your feet squared allows you to extend much further on the engage and square up after you've taken ground and hold your position.

Os du Randt exemplefies this.

 

[lhprop1]

When you start with your feet square, all you can do is lean forward. You then have to pick up one foot and be unbalanced for a split second to gain any ground. Starting with your feet squared allows you to extend much further on the engage and square up after you've taken ground and hold your position.

I meant to say "feet slightly staggered" but I can't edit.