Martin Johnson

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Am i the only one who kind of thinks that Johnson is looked upon to harshly? Talking to my non tigers supporting friend the other day about maybe seeing him coming back to Tigers as DOR a god the anyone would think MJ was the worse Coach England ever had.

Under him
Mullan, Hartley, Cole, Lawes, Attwood, Robshaw, Wood, Youngs, Simpson, Tuilagi all got their first starts and all currently in or around the EPS currently.

He was in charge during the a dark period of English rugby in general. English clubs only 2 teams in 3 years made the European Semi finals. (tigers and Saints) and only 6 out of the 24 teams to make the 1/4 finals in that 3 years where English clubs.

The premiership rugby was pretty crap aswell during that time with only really a maximum of say 5 teams being competitive a season compared to around 7-8 in recent times. People criticise him for picking the likes of Hape etc BUT you got to remember that these where all starters. Players like Lee Robinson was joint 3rd try scorer with 7.
I mean Sam Vesty was an European and Premiership finalist 10.

In his time in charge during the 6N's we averaged 11.6 tries a game, and that was against a pretty damn good Wales, Ireland and France (2 of which made the semi finals of the 2011 RWC).
Compared
Ashton 9 before him and Lancaster 11.4.
I'm not going to lie Johnson had a really crappy middle season in 2010, but he went on to improve from that and Win England it's first 6N's since 2003 (And last till 2016).

(Interesting stat Johnson is the only England coach to be fired in the same year that they won something).

He was the only England coach between SCW and Jones to win a game against the Big 3 Away from home.

I honestly think that Under Johnson we had probably the most compatible Back line we have had for some time Youngs, Flood, Ashton, Foden was 4 players who played so well together, but our midfield was crap, but then again so was the entire English midfield options then really was crap.

I do wonder what Johnson might have done If he was given the 2012 6N's. Esp if he was (Which i think he would) get rid of the senior players who let him down in that World cup.

Rant over i'm sure other disagree but for a coach with no experience and at only 38 years old when he took over (Lancaster was viewed as young but was 4 years older than Johnson when he got the england job and had been coaching for 10 years prior to the England job) looking back at it i think he can hold his head high.

 

[Geordie]

Do you think he'll be in the Tigers boards thoughts to take over?

PS I don't blame Johnson for that whole period. I agree it was a pretty difficult time.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think he will be.

The way Kay talks it sounds like he/they don't want a coach coach at DOR.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I doubt you are the only one mate. In some ways what happened with Johnson was pretty typical; the national team are in a fix and without a coach, various candidate names are suggested, both the media and the RFU start obsessing over the alluring "disney romance" which could be if Englands world cup winning captain returns to lead his country again, this time lifting the cup as Coach not captain. He himself mulls it over, doesn't know whether he's ready for it but concludes that he'll regret it if he doesn't take this opportunity. Naturally, as a coach with zero experience, things don't entirely go as planned. He probably should have known better but he's hardly the only coach to have ever made such a mistake.

Fundamentally I can't blame him very much and I agree with you that he did some good things, brought in some good players, had some good wins (including against Oz home and away) and won our own six nations in the post-2003 era. It needs to be said that he did make some poor selection decisions during his tenure. that midfield of Shontayne Hape AND Mike Tindall? Yep, that was absolutely horrible.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

The problem was MJ was not a qualified coach and had no managerial experience. He got the England job on the back of being the RWC winning captain; so no I don't look back harshly on MJ. If anything it was the RFU's fault and they still didn't learn from it when appointing Lancaster.

Did it affect his career after leaving the manager's position - without a shadow of a doubt and that is unfair IMO.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Don't disagree with Hape and Tindall being horrible calls but both where starting for teams in the play offs. Hape had played 62 games for Bath.

How Allen didn't get caps I don't know.

But you look at the other midfield options the likes of
Erinle
Powell
Smith (who I like but he isn't a international player really)
Where starting for teams at the top during that time.

Midfield for England in those days was shocking compared to the options we have had the last 2/3 years.

Although I think if he was more experienced he would have dropped Tindall for the word cup.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Don't disagree with Hape and Tindall being horrible calls but both where starting for teams in the play offs. Hape had played 62 games for Bath.

How Allen didn't get caps I don't know.

But you look at the other midfield options the likes of
Erinle
Powell
Smith (who I like but he isn't a international player really)
Where starting for teams at the top during that time.

Midfield for England in those days was shocking compared to the options we have had the last 2/3 years.

Although I think if he was more experienced he would have dropped Tindall for the word cup.

I can barely remember the other options except that Allen and Barritt both should have been capped earlier and in Allens case for many more games than he was. Waldouck imo was one of the most talented midfield players of the time also but so injury-plagued that I can't blame coaches for not picking him.. he simply never achieved the sort of form I think he was really capable of. Henry Trinder had some really good form back then I recall. So there were options for sure.

 

[Peat]

The Barritt-Hape thing was a great lesson for me in terms of the grass not always being greener. Sure we won games with Barritt, but the complete lack of go-forwards he offered didn't half make it difficult. Hape wasn't great but he was at least hard to tackle.

In retrospect, Allen probably was never going to be an outstanding international option. Trinder and Lowe looked like options but I don't think either were truly demanding a call. The options were pretty bad.

 

[ncurd]

Lets remember though Barritt has been chucked on the heap of not good enough centers we've had since Greenwood/Tindall/Catt. Its a bloody miracle we've finally got a paring most are happy with now.

 

[ALJ]

What's Johnson been up to since he left the England job?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

What's Johnson been up to since he left the England job?

Nothing much some acting in commercials, some NFL guest stuff.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think the thing is Johnson was ousted for the stuff of field, not how England were playing. Under Johnson we had a string of scandals and hearing abut players misbehaving and he didn't seem to care, the image of English rugby was being tarnished and it was happening on his watch. It's no coincidence that Lancaster took over afterwards with the aim of rebuilding the image.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think the thing is Johnson was ousted for the stuff of field, not how England were playing. Under Johnson we had a string of scandals and hearing abut players misbehaving and he didn't seem to care, the image of English rugby was being tarnished and it was happening on his watch. It's no coincidence that Lancaster took over afterwards with the aim of rebuilding the image.

And that is entirely down to inexperience i mean he was still playing 2 years before he was England head coach.

And it wasn't IMO a sackable offence, personally. In the end the media as it usually does with England coaches in all sports spun it out of proportion.

Lancaster aim being to rebuild the image was PR BS to take pressure of him he inherited a six nations winning squad and used alot of the players in that squad during his time and still sprouted crap about how he didn't have much of a team to work with.

The more i think about it the more ****** off i get about his treatment, he's been the scapegoat of english rugby for the last 4 years.

RFU needed to try and hire someone with experience as a consultant for a year after that, but no sack him and tarnish his reputation.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

The Barritt-Hape thing was a great lesson for me in terms of the grass not always being greener. Sure we won games with Barritt, but the complete lack of go-forwards he offered didn't half make it difficult. Hape wasn't great but he was at least hard to tackle.

In retrospect, Allen probably was never going to be an outstanding international option. Trinder and Lowe looked like options but I don't think either were truly demanding a call. The options were pretty bad.

I doubt any of the aforementioned could have become world class players but that's not the position you start from and unfortunately it's where Johnson did start from. I think he took the view that neither Trinder, Allen nor Lowe were made for greatness and decided he would rather the experienced devil he knew - Tindall - than the inexperienced one he didn't. Who really knows what those players could have become but imo we had much more than we showcased during that period and I think Trinder in particular was demanding a chance. Although Hape often gets the ridicule, I did feel as though I understood his role in the team better than Tindall, even though at his peak Tindall was by far the better player. Tindall was just there because Johnson trusted noone else, at least Hape had some claim to form in his position.

Overall there's no doubting that Johnson had tenure during some barren years but that doesn't explain away the selection problems. Let's remember of course that the desire to stick with players he knew from earlier days also affected other positions - we also had Lewis Moody for no particular reason for far too long.

I think the thing is Johnson was ousted for the stuff of field, not how England were playing. Under Johnson we had a string of scandals and hearing abut players misbehaving and he didn't seem to care, the image of English rugby was being tarnished and it was happening on his watch. It's no coincidence that Lancaster took over afterwards with the aim of rebuilding the image.

We were also pretty terrible in the world cup where the RFU aimed for a semi.

 

[Peat]

A lot of good coaches have mucked up World Cups. That shouldn't be the sole point of judgement.

RR is right that the main problem was off the pitch rather than on it. edit: Not to say that what was on the pitch was good. But he should have been given a chance to put that right. The off the pitch stuff means we couldn't.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The RFU shouldn't have offered him the job, but he's just as culpable for accepting. He must have known that he was totally unqualified to take it on - it was like appointing a first year medical student as a cardiac surgeon on the basis that he'd got the best A levels.

Great players often don't make great coaches, simply because they don't understand why others can't do what came naturally to them. MJ had no experience to fall back on and if Jones has proven one thing its the difference that man management makes and, as ragerancher alludes to, I think that's where Jonno fell very short. Aura from playing days is a 10 minute wonder - Bobby Moore failed as a football manager and there are many other examples.

If Johnson ever wants a way back, I'm sure there would be plenty of opportunities.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The RFU shouldn't have offered him the job, but he's just as culpable for accepting. He must have known that he was totally unqualified to take it on - it was like appointing a first year medical student as a cardiac surgeon on the basis that he'd got the best A levels.

Great players often don't make great coaches, simply because they don't understand why others can't do what came naturally to them. MJ had no experience to fall back on and if Jones has proven one thing its the difference that man management makes and, as ragerancher alludes to, I think that's where Jonno fell very short. Aura from playing days is a 10 minute wonder - Bobby Moore failed as a football manager and there are many other examples.

If Johnson ever wants a way back, I'm sure there would be plenty of opportunities.

You say he shouldn't of accepted the job, BUT he did win something no other English coach had won in the last 8 years (Or in the 4 years after) against a pretty strong six nations at the time.

so clearly he did bring something to the table though as a manager.
I agree with the man management thing and that he should of gone to Tigers first as SCW told him.

 

[Which Tyler]

The RFU shouldn't have offered him the job, but he's just as culpable for accepting. He must have known that he was totally unqualified to take it on - it was like appointing a first year medical student as a cardiac surgeon on the basis that he'd got the best A levels.

Great players often don't make great coaches, simply because they don't understand why others can't do what came naturally to them. MJ had no experience to fall back on and if Jones has proven one thing its the difference that man management makes and, as ragerancher alludes to, I think that's where Jonno fell very short. Aura from playing days is a 10 minute wonder - Bobby Moore failed as a football manager and there are many other examples.

If Johnson ever wants a way back, I'm sure there would be plenty of opportunities.

 

[ALJ]

Nothing much some acting in commercials, some NFL guest stuff.

I'd say that's what counts against him rather than what happened during his international tenure.

Ain't like he's gone away and learned his trade to improve himself nor proven himself to any degree at club level.

'Cos of that, you'd have to say it would be a risky appointment but I would like to see a former Leicester player appointed.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You say he shouldn't of accepted the job, BUT he did win something no other English coach had won in the last 8 years (Or in the 4 years after) against a pretty strong six nations at the time.

so clearly he did bring something to the table though as a manager.
I agree with the man management thing and that he should of gone to Tigers first as SCW told him.

Jonhnson won the 6N with 4 wins, Lancaster also got 4 wins every year and, as has been shown, built a squad that could have achieved what they achieved in 2016 if only they were slightly better coached. Let's face it, the teams we faced were actually not as good as you make out. As I said the killer was his apathy to terrible discipline on and off the pitch, he was too close to the players and he was not in control.