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More ado about bonus points

Leonormous Boozer

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Ireland
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Leinster
Pro 12 table as of this moment:
Connacht, 9 wins, 5 losses (one of which was to Leinster), 1st place.
Ulster, 9 wins, 5 losses (one of which was to Leinster), 2nd place.
Leinster 10 wins, 3 losses (none of which were to Ulster or Connacht, one to Scarlets), 3rd place.
Scarlets 10 wins, 4 losses (None to Ulster, one to Connacht and Leinster), 4th place.
To a fan of any other sport this is wrong. This is just wrong and the bonus point is an arbitrary system that adds nothing to a league. Leinster and Scarlets are the best teams so far in this pro 12 and the bonus point system should only be used when two sides have the same number of wins and draws and even then head to head results would be better. Discuss.
 
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Nope, disagree.

A 45-3 win should be worth more than a 12-11 win
A 11-12 loss should be worth something more to a team than a 3-45 loss.

Bonus points generally fairly reflect consistent match performances.

In my experience, the people who complain most about bonus points are fans of teams who are disadvantaged by them.
 
All points are arbitrary systems, no?

I like tries. This leads to tries. I don't see the problem.

Suck it up you inferior version of sigesige. :mad:
 
The system works well in France i think the best changes made was the 5 point deficit for the losing bonus (not 7points) if you are 5 pts or less the losing team could still win with a converted try right up to the last very second of the game. This with the plus 3 tries bonus attacking point keeps games alive until the very end, where scoring 4 tries did not. Giving both teams a point for scoring 4 tries each is a little like if you bring your dog to the game he gets a bone, if you bring both your dogs they get 3 bones one each and one for your mates dog.!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is probably why most Stadiums have banned dogs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Nope, disagree.

A 45-3 win should be worth more than a 12-11 win
A 11-12 loss should be worth something more to a team than a 3-45 loss.

Bonus points generally fairly reflect consistent match performances.

In my experience, the people who complain most about bonus points are fans of teams who are disadvantaged by them.
Why? A team goes into a game wanting to win, that's the only objective, it's utterly ridiculous to have the possibility of a team winning 18 games in a 22 game season losing out to a team with 16 just because when they lost "they didn't lose as badly" or when they won "they won more convincingly". You can allow a narrow loss or a big win be slightly more beneficial by having points difference or tries scored, which ironically isn't used in the pro 12 table and that sees Ulster with less tries ahead of Connacht despite the only reason they're top being the tries they scored, to separate a team on equal wins but the bonus point system aids teams who score four tries every now and then. The current pro 12 table is made even more ridiculous considering Ulster and Connacht have only scored 2 and 4 tries more than Leinster with the Scarlets only 2 further behind. To add to that Leinster's PD is 137, Ulster are the second best in the league and on 88, that would suggest Leinster are winning more convincingly but often scoring 2 or 3 tries a game where as Ulster have scored at least 20 of their 34 tries, almost certainly more, in a third of their games.

As for the last comment I specifically chose now to comment because after the next three game weeks which see Leinster play three poor or struggling sides in Cardiff, Zebre and Glasgow and making up their game in hand because of it they will go top and probably have a safe buffer between them and second place. My motive for making this thread was media outlets in Ireland consistently saying that more Ulster and Connacht players should be playing for Ireland, a point I have made clear that I agree with, because they're 1st and 2nd in the pro12 when a quick look at the pro 12 table clearly shows that Leinster have been the best team in that league.

Bonus points work well in the ERCC and the World Cup because it's over a short amount of games and the sides now they'll probably end up tied on wins if they lose a single game so the knowledge that four tries in a game could be the difference of playing the QF as a top seed or not but in a 22 game league the only change it can lead to is having the best side in the league not on top of the table or in the case of the pro 12's bizarre table, as of the end of round 14, have the two best sides in third and fourth.

The powers that be in rugby have decided that certain styles of play are better than others but in every other sport sides who play effective, low scoring systems based on the back of a strong defence can do well, soccer, hurling, Gaelic Football, American football all come to mind. Rugby's bonus point system is like taking an extra shot off the round of a golfer for every four birdies or eagles he gets regardless of the amount of bogeys he makes, absolutely nuts.

Peat, Sigesige is The Lord around here I am just furthering his work.
 
Why? A team goes into a game wanting to win, that's the only objective

The "win points" are for the win, the bonus points are for the performance.

If you can't see that, then there isn't much to discuss.
 
The "win points" are for the win, the bonus points are for the performance.

If you can't see that, then there isn't much to discuss.
That's exactly the discussion! Why is there extra points for performance? No other sport rewards a team for the manner in which they win, winning in sport is all that matters, Leinster have won more games and have a better points difference than Connacht and therefore have been the better side in the league and the side who are performing better. Connacht are ahead of Leinster purely due to their style of play, in today's games Leinster won 14-13 by executing one of their two try scoring chances, defending ferociously against a gale force wind and kicking and running a lot smarter into that wind against Cardiff. Connacht put around 50 points on Zebre's shambles of a defence while conceding over 30 points themselves. Does Connacht's attacking prowess make them a better team than Leinster because Leinster are an extremely intelligent side with great defence? Leinster keeping a clean sheet against them would suggest not! Leinster having more wins than them would also suggest not, as would Leinster's better points difference. The only place Leinster aren't stronger than Connacht on the league table is tries scored yet they find themselves 2pts behind Connacht. This is an extremely flawed and biased system of points scoring that caters only to the casual fan enjoying the last 10 minutes of a game.

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The "win points" are for the win, the bonus points are for the performance.

If you can't see that, then there isn't much to discuss.
That's exactly the discussion! Why is there extra points for performance? No other sport rewards a team for the manner in which they win, winning in sport is all that matters, Leinster have won more games and have a better points difference than Connacht and therefore have been the better side in the league and the side who are performing better. Connacht are ahead of Leinster purely due to their style of play, in today's games Leinster won 14-13 by executing one of their two try scoring chances, defending ferociously against a gale force wind and kicking and running a lot smarter into that wind against Cardiff. Connacht put around 50 points on Zebre's shambles of a defence while conceding over 30 points themselves. Does Connacht's attacking prowess make them a better team than Leinster because Leinster are an extremely intelligent side with great defence? Leinster keeping a clean sheet against them would suggest not! Leinster having more wins than them would also suggest not, as would Leinster's better points difference. The only place Leinster aren't stronger than Connacht on the league table is tries scored yet they find themselves 2pts behind Connacht. This is an extremely flawed and biased system of points scoring that caters only to the casual fan enjoying the last 10 minutes of a game.
 
That's exactly the discussion! Why is there extra points for performance? No other sport rewards a team for the manner in which they win,

False!

In cricket tournaments such as the Cricket World Cup, the IPL the RAM Slam T20 etc. there are also bonus points if you score a certain amount of runs, or bowl a team out or win by a certain margin.

In some countries they even have bonus points in swimming/athletics tournaments where swimmers/athletes get bonus points for consistent performance during the tournaments.

I have even seen Bonus points is Sports such as Lawn Bowls, Darts, Skeet Shooting and at some stage even certain soccer tournaments used some form of a bonus point system.

The essence of a bonus point system is to reward the team for their performance in rugby. By either scoring a lot of tries or by never giving up and only losing by 7 or less points.

It's really not that difficult of a concept to understand.
 
No other sport rewards a team for the manner in which they win


Trap shooting
Cricket
Baseball
Basketball
Field Hockey
10 pin bowling
Lawn Bowls
Jai Alai
Ice Hockey (NHL)
Atheletics
Motor Racing
Amateur wrestling
Equestrian sports
Cycling

The AFL is also considering introducing bonus points


... so much for "no other sports"
 
False!

In cricket tournaments such as the Cricket World Cup, the IPL the RAM Slam T20 etc. there are also bonus points if you score a certain amount of runs, or bowl a team out or win by a certain margin.

In some countries they even have bonus points in swimming/athletics tournaments where swimmers/athletes get bonus points for consistent performance during the tournaments.

I have even seen Bonus points is Sports such as Lawn Bowls, Darts, Skeet Shooting and at some stage even certain soccer tournaments used some form of a bonus point system.

The essence of a bonus point system is to reward the team for their performance in rugby. By either scoring a lot of tries or by never giving up and only losing by 7 or less points.

It's really not that difficult of a concept to understand.
It's not that I don't understand the concept, I just completely disagree with it in a league format where everyone plays each other home and away. In the WC and ERCC it works fine because in one everyone plays each other only once and in the other different amount of teams qualify from different groups, it might work in Super rugby too but I haven't bothered trying to get my head around that league structure this year. But no one has said anything to convince me that the team on top of the pro 12 table is better than the teams in 2nd or 3rd, things have changed in this match week. So far the most compelling argument is that some sports do in fact offer bonus points for the style of play, the most similar to rugby of these being field hockey which says an awful lot (I'm not accepting soccer because no top tier league in the world uses it, I can only imagine it's a bit of a gimmick trying to acquire interest in the sport where there is very little).

I find the only argument so far is "no it's ok other sports do have them" and then when proceeding to name sports like bowls, motor racing, jai alai and trap shooting it's kind of a watered down argument when you compare the sports I've named that don't, almost all the other football codes. Rugby has gone too far with bonus points and really needs to dial it back to where the system belongs, and that's not in a league spanning 8 months where every team plays the other home and away, otherwise you get a team being rewarded simply because they have to score a lot of tries because they can't defend. Reward them for the games they win that way but don't throw them ahead of teams with more wins because of it.
 
It's not that I don't understand the concept, I just completely disagree with it in a league format where everyone plays each other home and away. In the WC and ERCC it works fine because in one everyone plays each other only once and in the other different amount of teams qualify from different groups, it might work in Super rugby too but I haven't bothered trying to get my head around that league structure this year. But no one has said anything to convince me that the team on top of the pro 12 table is better than the teams in 2nd or 3rd, things have changed in this match week. So far the most compelling argument is that some sports do in fact offer bonus points for the style of play, the most similar to rugby of these being field hockey which says an awful lot (I'm not accepting soccer because no top tier league in the world uses it, I can only imagine it's a bit of a gimmick trying to acquire interest in the sport where there is very little).

I find the only argument so far is "no it's ok other sports do have them" and then when proceeding to name sports like bowls, motor racing, jai alai and trap shooting it's kind of a watered down argument when you compare the sports I've named that don't, almost all the other football codes. Rugby has gone too far with bonus points and really needs to dial it back to where the system belongs, and that's not in a league spanning 8 months where every team plays the other home and away, otherwise you get a team being rewarded simply because they have to score a lot of tries because they can't defend. Reward them for the games they win that way but don't throw them ahead of teams with more wins because of it.

So what is really your problem here? Is it because Leinster isn't on the top of the log? Which doesn't really matter all tham much at the moment.

Leinster has a game in hand and could still finish top of the table.

But you are forgetting that there are playoffs too. And bonus points only really comes into contention to seperate the last few spots available for qualification for the playoffs. As the log currently stands the top 4 teams are deservedly there no matter how many bonus points they have scored or not. All of them won more than 8 matches. So basically the bonus points just solidify their spots in the playoffs.

And we all know bonus points doesn't mean anything in the playoffs.
 
So what is really your problem here? Is it because Leinster isn't on the top of the log? Which doesn't really matter all tham much at the moment.

Leinster has a game in hand and could still finish top of the table.

But you are forgetting that there are playoffs too. And bonus points only really comes into contention to seperate the last few spots available for qualification for the playoffs. As the log currently stands the top 4 teams are deservedly there no matter how many bonus points they have scored or not. All of them won more than 8 matches. So basically the bonus points just solidify their spots in the playoffs.

And we all know bonus points doesn't mean anything in the playoffs.

Kind of but not really, Leinster will top the table I'm almost certain of that. It's more that the bonus point system badly affects the consistent sides in the league. As things stand now Scarlets would lose a home semi-final to a side that has won less games than them in Connacht. That happened to Ospreys last year when they came 3rd with 16 wins to Munster in 2nd with 15, the year before Leinster got a home final over Glasgow having finished 1st despite winning one less game and in 2010/2011, had European qualification been what it is now, Cardiff would not only have lost 4th place to a side with less wins they'd have also lost 5th place and a spot in Europe to a team with less wins. None of these scenarios would have been changed due to the points a draw is worth in any league format either.

I just don't understand how a 22 game season where each team plays each other home and away isn't enough to prove who the best teams are through how many wins, draws and losses they have. If they really want bp's use them to separate sides with the same number of wins and draws but don't open the possibility of a team winning one or two less games than another side and finishing ahead of them, it's completely ridiculous.
 
Kind of but not really, Leinster will top the table I'm almost certain of that. It's more that the bonus point system badly affects the consistent sides in the league. As things stand now Scarlets would lose a home semi-final to a side that has won less games than them in Connacht. That happened to Ospreys last year when they came 3rd with 16 wins to Munster in 2nd with 15, the year before Leinster got a home final over Glasgow having finished 1st despite winning one less game and in 2010/2011, had European qualification been what it is now, Cardiff would not only have lost 4th place to a side with less wins they'd have also lost 5th place and a spot in Europe to a team with less wins. None of these scenarios would have been changed due to the points a draw is worth in any league format either.

I just don't understand how a 22 game season where each team plays each other home and away isn't enough to prove who the best teams are through how many wins, draws and losses they have. If they really want bp's use them to separate sides with the same number of wins and draws but don't open the possibility of a team winning one or two less games than another side and finishing ahead of them, it's completely ridiculous.

I wonder what your stance would have been if Leinster wasn't involved/adversely affected??
 
I wonder what your stance would have been if Leinster wasn't involved/adversely affected??

It's the reason I noticed it but that's all to be honest. Leinster have won this competition a couple times aided greatly by how often we got TBP's though and I have recognised that and next season we'll probably rely heavily on TBP's again considering that it's likely that we'll lose at least 4 front row players, a second row, at least our first choice back row, our first choice halfbacks, our first choice centre and one winger every international period so winning those matches will be incredibly difficult. I still think the team with the best winning ratio should top the league though and that tries are irrelevant to that, if we want tries to hold more value in our game make them worth more points the BP system is something that only works in certain scenarios and do nothing for knockout games.
 
Kind of but not really, Leinster will top the table I'm almost certain of that. It's more that the bonus point system badly affects the consistent sides in the league.

No, it doesn't, its the opposite in fact

Bonus points reward the teams that are consistently better.

Teams are rewarded with bonus points when they

- Score lots of tries (they are consistently better than teams that don't score lots of tries)
- Only lose by small margins (they are consistently better than team which lose by large margins

Bonus points are a great way to separate teams that would only otherwise be separated by points difference. How many Six Nations have we seen where two or three teams have finished with the same W/L ratio, and the team that won it was the one that thrashed Italy by the biggest margin at home?
 
No, it doesn't, its the opposite in fact

Bonus points reward the teams that are consistently better.

Teams are rewarded with bonus points when they

- Score lots of tries (they are consistently better than teams that don't score lots of tries)
- Only lose by small margins (they are consistently better than team which lose by large margins

Bonus points are a great way to separate teams that would only otherwise be separated by points difference. How many Six Nations have we seen where two or three teams have finished with the same W/L ratio, and the team that won it was the one that thrashed Italy by the biggest margin at home?
22 games, home and away... They're not better than other teams if they don't win more matches...
 

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