Mr Mbeki & Zimbabwe.

[Prestwick]

Okay then, Mr Mbeki and Zimbabwe...


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On Zimbabwe. With Mbeki's help the MDC now has a majority seating in parlament. So there is progress, although I agree it's not enough.[/b]

Excuse me? What exactly has he done to help the MDC get that? Direct funding? Politely asking Robert Mugabe not to incarcerate all of the MDC leadership? I say most of the Zimbabwean exile community in London is laughing at that statement.

Mbeki's "quiet diplomacy" has been a disaster for Zimbabwe, while the country lurches from crisis to crisis, he has done little or nothing to help the plight of Zimbabweans. So much so that the MDC have demanded that someone else (preferably from the African Union) be appointed as envoy between the MDC and ZANU-PF because, to be blunt, they think Mbeki either doesn't have the political will to enforce a solution to stop the violence and an illeigal regeime or, worse, is quietly propping up Mugabe for stability's sake.

Ever since the present talks have started, Mbeki has tried and tried again (quietly I must add) to bounce MDC leader Morgan Tsvangirai into accepting any deal that ZANU-PF lay down on the table. The only solution should be that Tsvangirai should become President eventually after a transistional government but this isn't a fair world by the looks of it.

Mbeki's main foreign policy legacy will be his "do nothing" attitude towards Zimbabwe and how he has let the country slowly slide into chaos and disaster. He could have stopped it at any time but his reluctance to depose a man who is famous throughout Africa as one of the major independence leaders has shown that reputations speak louder than actions on the ground.

 

[Jer1cho]

Was this really necessary? Are you trying to prove a point?

 

[St Helens RLFC]

Come on Jer1cho, South Africa have done way too little to put pressure on the tyrant across the border.

 

[Charles]

True but nobody has any moral highground I'd say...

 

[An Tarbh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (St Helens RLFC @ Sep 11 2008, 10:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Come on Jer1cho, South Africa have done way too little to put pressure on the tyrant across the border.[/b]

true but this topic is more about Prestwick having the last word rather than starting a decent argument.

 

[Jer1cho]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (St Helens RLFC @ Sep 11 2008, 11:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Come on Jer1cho, South Africa have done way too little to put pressure on the tyrant across the border.[/b]

What can we do? 3 quarters of our leaders are retarded. We have a health minister who think beet-root and garlic concoctions made by black sangomas (witch doctors) can cure AIDS. Our future president, Mr. Jacob Zuma, who is the leader of our ruling party, The African National Congress (ANC) is currently on trial for corruption, and was on trial for rape last year. He thinks he got rid of AIDS by taking a shower after having sex with an HIV+ woman.

Our minister of security stated the following comment on live TV aimed at the people who keep moaning about the crime:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwXSIDp3RSM

And, quite possibly my favorite of all, our head of police Mr. Jackie Selebi said the following on live TV when asked about what we will do about crime in the 2010 Fifa World Cup:

"The recent crime statistics have shown that the least amount of crime occurs in June and July. The world cup will take place during these months, which means that we will not have much to be worried about"

The whole world wanted these idiots to be our leaders. So now you have it. Every single leader in this country only cares about "the white people did this, Black economic empowerment, transformation, affirmative action... bla di f***ing bla! As much as i cant stand seeing that idiot Mugabe destroy that country, I'm afraid they wont be getting much more help from us, because quite frankly, we are incapable.

Thabo Mbeki is, in my opinion, doing a decent job on cleaning up SA. But on the Zimbabwe side, i don't know if he will take any matters any further. I just pray to God that what is happening in Zimbabwe will never happen here.


*To all members: Please do NOT start flaming at me about racism and all that. I am a realist, and i get my fair share of criticisms. I'm not trying to start anything, but i WILL speak my mind.*

 

[bates]

Well Jericho, sad to read this things.
It's destroying your country, those c***s getting all the money and problems getting worse.

 

[Steve-o]

Prestwick seems to feel his ego or whatever got knocked because I dared to say I know more on what's in my country and region. I know, how dare I even imply that!

Prestwick accused Jer1cho of throwing stones in his so called glass house because he said the queen doesn't really do anything, he also decided to take it on himself to critisize Thabo Mbeki after I said it's a bit ironic that he's grilling him so bad, saying "despite having the influence and power that his position grants him, he's done bugger all about Zimbabwe, bugger all about AIDs as well as a fair few other things". After that I told him to keep some of his opinions to himself because he obviously doesn't know what's happening here.

Ok Prestwick listen, I'm not a Mbeki fan but he's done more than people give him credit for. You and the rest of the world say he's done nothing about the AIDs epidemic. Rubbish. I grew up in the area (Zululand) with the highest AIDs rate in the world, the WORLD. I went to pre-primary school, primary school and high school there, lived there for 20 years so I think that you should take my word for it when I say he has done alot. I was part of the youth that was targeted on AIDs awareness and prevention. I was part of the first grade to ever have an extra subject called Life Orientation, a subject that deals with AIDs, teenage pregancy and human rights among other things, with teachers putting a box full of free condoms at the door.
Nelson Mandela did nothing, Mbeki started all of this in his first term as president. So you are wrong about that bit, but instead of even acknowleding it you decide to start a thread about one thing I said that you think you can get one over me.

Ok so you started a thread about Zimbabwe. And this suppose to do what? You say, "...when their own head of state fiddles while Zimbabwe burns". Very dramatic but false. Mbeki is a low key president, yes, but I see him almost second day walking with either Mugabe or Tsvangirai after talks were held. He has stimulate talks between the MDC and ZANU-PF, helped get an independant election monitoring board in for the first legimate elections in 20 years, and now evidently the MDC has the majority of the seats in parlament. What do you want him to do? Invade? Impose sanctions? What? Both of those options will cause huge instability in the region and will cause more damage to Zimbabwe. But with you saying somwthing like this "He could have stopped it at any time but his reluctance to depose a man who is famous throughout Africa as one of the major independence leaders has shown that reputations speak louder than actions on the ground", it sounds like you're taking a feather out of Bush's hat. You act like I don't care about this stuff, I do. My best friend who I spent the majority teenage years attached at the hip with, the only guy I'll give the 'brother from another mother' tag, was kicked off his tabacco farm, along with his family, a few kilometers north of Harare back in 2000. They were told to pack their stuff by the 'war veterans' and leave within 48 hours or they'll be killed. They fled to SA, moved from town to town for about 2 years before settling in Zululand with my mom's church members helping them with food, accommadation and pulled some strings to help them get employment. I met him during this period and we got on like a house on fire, he even stayed at our house sometimes if his parents were going through a rough patch with finances, sometimes he stayed 2 weeks at a time. I, of course, didn't care because it was just like a really long sleepover with my best friend.
So stop acting like I don't have a grip with what's going on here, I do, and I see progress. It's slow, damn slow, but heck how much can one man do? Who is, in my view, the best out of a bad bunch of leaders like Jer1cho said. He has mammoth issues to solve in his own country, apartheid left SA with a very unique situation, there's nothing like it anywhere else in the world, so he's pretty much trending into uncharted territory with every plan or decision he makes. Comparing him with the queen is SO ignorant. He has established major economic links with China and India among other countries, and I'm talking MAJOR. Stuff you can actually see on the ground level. He's been very active with economic development and foreign investment but let sport and social issues slip.
He has made mistakes but goddamit lay off him a bit.

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Sep 11 2008, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Was this really necessary? Are you trying to prove a point?[/b]

Well, I went off topic so I wanted to move it to a new topic. Did you want me and Steve to continue bickering off topic on the previous thread? This has nothing to do with egos, neither has it anything to do with me having the last word. Steve, I'm not trying to get one up on anyone, I'm not knocking your knowledge of South Africa and when did I ever say that?

In the end, I think we've got a bit of a gulf between each other. I come from a background where I lived with multiple nationalities and we'd spend half the day, drunk, bashing each other's leaders. They'd bash the Queen, I'd bash their President of whatever. Eventually, we'd all agree that they were as bad as each other and then argue over who was going to get the next round.

Look, I've got no problem with people bashing the Queen so long as I have the right for a come back on the other guy so lets just put this silly discussion to bed, have a few beers and talk about something where we can have a good debate on with other people.

I'm not points scoring, not saying you're wrong or that you don't know anything or that you're not entitled to your own opinion, lets just move on. What do you say?

Anyway on with the Zimbabwe talk!

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Ok so you started a thread about Zimbabwe. And this suppose to do what? You say, "...when their own head of state fiddles while Zimbabwe burns". Very dramatic but false. Mbeki is a low key president, yes, but I see him almost second day walking with either Mugabe or Tsvangirai after talks were held. He has stimulated talks between the MDC and ZANU-PF, helped get an independant election monitoring board in for the first legimate elections in 20 years, and now evidently the MDC has the majority of the seats in parlament.[/b]

What you fail to point out is that he barely has the trust of SADC, let alone members like Botswana or Zambia who have lost faith in Mbeki's ability to negotiate a peaceful settlement in Zimbabwe. He has lost the trust of the main MDC faction. You could argue that it was pressure from other SADC members and the African Union which pushed Mugabe to institute a vaguely independent election monitoring board but even that wasn't really "independent". It was more measures like posting voting counts outside of polling stations and allowing SADC monitors into Zimbabwe which enabled a modestly fair first round of voting.

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What do you want him to do? Invade? Impose sanctions? What? Both of those options will cause huge instability in the region and will cause more damage to Zimbabwe. But with you saying somwthing like this "He could have stopped it at any time but his reluctance to depose a man who is famous throughout Africa as one of the major independence leaders has shown that reputations speak louder than actions on the ground", it sounds like you're taking a feather out of Bush's hat.[/b]

I want him to voice some kind of objection to the crimes that Robert Mugabe and his cronies have inflicted on their people. It doesn't have to be condemnation, he doesn't have to start banging shoes on the table at the UN or the SADC or on Mugabe's desk, just something, anything like "I disapprove of what is happening in Zimbabwe" would mean a sea change in how Africa and the outside world approaches Zimbabwe. At a time where members of the AU, the SADC, COSATU , Jacob Zuma, even Nelson Mandela are becoming exasperated with Mugabe and Zimbabwe, Mbeki is now the only major player in this whole business who has refused to critisize Mugabe. How can Mbeki solve the crisis? He needs to grow a spine.

South Africa needs to join the EU in targeted sanctions against Mugabe and the ZANU-PF regeime, squeeze Mugabe much like how the West (quite rightly) squeezed Rhodesia before it. And he should use his clout to put pressure on the SADC and anyone in the AU who will listen to follow suit. We ourselves can't do anything, invasion is out of the question as we have neither the resources nor the political will and it would be the wrong thing to do anyway. This is Africa's problem and the only thing we in Europe can do is stand by with money and aid for when the time comes.

I've met a few Zimbabweans when at work or at University. White and black. And they all have the same story of heartbreaking loss of possessions, loved ones and of being forced to flee the nation of their birth but they all are itching to go back when the time comes, they haven't abandoned Zimbabwe and there is a mini-industry here of money transfer firms which help people send money back to Zimbabwe without it going through the official channels. I think the Economist puts it perfectly when it says:

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...it is a resource-rich country with a core of well-educated people, millions of whom have fled abroad and must be wooed back home. Mr Mugabe may cling to power for a while, but his grip is weaker. Zimbabwe needs help from the West. But most of all it needs its African neighbours to tell the tyrant unambiguously to go—and to snuff him out if he refuses. It can be done.[/b]

 

[Steve-o]

Are you gonna show some respect and retract your comment about Mbeki doing "bugger all" for AIDs?

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

What South Africa is doing with Zimbabwe is exactly what the rest of the international school has been doing since the treaty of Westphalia was signed in 1648. That is, practicing Non-Intervention in others internal affairs and letting them sort themselves out. If the Zimbabweans want their country back they will have to fight for it themselves.