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Nation Eligibilty Catch-All Thread

Bruce_ma gooshvili

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Twitter conversation suggests Schoeman, Lowe, Van der Merwe and Gibson Park have all made reference to their 'home' not being in the British Isles. Spain are disqualified on many other grounds but it is a very valid line of argument. The wording of regulation 8 and the Spanish judgment are pretty clear it is capturing people who have genuinely moved home in the most fundamental of senses, rather than people passing through on a career break. Might be interesting if someone in the Irish Scottish pool makes a formal complaint.
 

Le Frére Alpha

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Twitter conversation suggests Schoeman, Lowe, Van der Merwe and Gibson Park have all made reference to their 'home' not being in the British Isles. Spain are disqualified on many other grounds but it is a very valid line of argument. The wording of regulation 8 and the Spanish judgment are pretty clear it is capturing people who have genuinely moved home in the most fundamental of senses, rather than people passing through on a career break. Might be interesting if someone in the Irish Scottish pool makes a formal complaint.
Do you have the exact wording of the reg? Sounds speculative at best as an argument.
 

TRF_Olyy

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Yeah, someone calling somewhere their home is very different from it being provably so

Manu Tuilagi refers to Samoa as home despite not having lived there for almost 20years
 

die_mole

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(c) the Player has completed forty eight consecutive months of Residence immediately preceding the time of playing

I think their main argument is that the circumstances surrounding their player are similar to the circumstances surrounding Schoeman, Lowe, Park, and Van Der Merwe; the regulation is very vague so they are pointing towards the precedent.

I tend to agree with them on that argument.

WR Explanations in Spoiler
10. How will the eligibility criteria be assessed?

Ordinarily, the task of assessing whether a Player satisfies any of the eligibility criteria set out in Regulation 8.1 is straightforward. However, as a result of professionalism, greater mobility and societal family change this is not always the case. Difficult cases have arisen and may continue to emerge. The responses to the questions set out below are intended to provide further clarification as to how each eligibility criterion in Regulation 8.1 will be applied.

The questions and answers should be regarded as guidelines. They have been prepared on the basis of operational experience to date. It is not possible to anticipate all scenarios that may arise and a degree of flexibility in the application of the Regulations will be maintained. Moving forward, in the event that there is any uncertainty or the need for clarification in relation to the application of the eligibility criteria in particular circumstances, then the Regulations Committee may be asked by World Rugby to make a ruling on a Player's eligibility. In relation to any such adjudication, the Regulations Committee will always have in mind the rationale behind Regulation 8. The aim of the Regulations Committee in each case where clarification may be required, is to establish whether, in all the circumstances, a Player has, by reference to the eligibility criteria in Regulation 8.1, been able to demonstrate a genuine, close and credible national link with the country that the Player wishes to represent. It is anticipated that over time a body of rulings by the Regulations Committee may develop which may, in turn, assist in providing further guidance to Unions in relation to eligibility matters.

11. When should any uncertainty over a Player's eligibility be clarified?

It is essential that eligibility issues are clarified before a Player represents the senior or next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team of a Union or a Union's senior National Representative Sevens Team. This is particularly important in light of the consequences of a Player being "captured" by a Union. Accordingly, if a Union has any doubt over a Player's eligibility status it must take all steps necessary to clarify the position before selecting the Player to play for its senior or next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team or its senior National Representative Sevens Team.

"In all the circumstances, a Player has, by reference to the eligibility criteria in Regulation 8.1, been able to demonstrate a genuine, close and credible national link with the country that the Player wishes to represent" is the key wording to me. I think a reasonable person would say that the player Spain capped had similar links as the aforementioned Scottish capped players.
 

die_mole

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I'm not to concerned with them calling another nation home but rather why is world rugby drawing a distinction between visiting your nation of birth during quarantine and visiting for a week or two during the offseason.

I know it's not 1:1 but an analogy to American law.
I moved North Carolina to PA during the pandemic to stay with my parents and get out of the city. I always had the intention to return to NC (kept my apartment, kept my parking spot, still enrolled in school there) and under US law that would make me a citizen of NC for the very few instances it matters. If the Spanish player always had the intention to return to Spain after the pandemic I don't know why this hiatus in his residency is different than a vacation.
 

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I'm not to concerned with them calling another nation home but rather why is world rugby drawing a distinction between visiting your nation of birth during quarantine and visiting for a week or two during the offseason.

I know it's not 1:1 but an analogy to American law.
I moved North Carolina to PA during the pandemic to stay with my parents and get out of the city. I always had the intention to return to NC (kept my apartment, kept my parking spot, still enrolled in school there) and under US law that would make me a citizen of NC for the very few instances it matters. If the Spanish player always had the intention to return to Spain after the pandemic I don't know why this hiatus in his residency is different than a vacation.
Pretty much agree with this. Rules are rules are rules but it does seem a bit harsh considering the circumstances. The bad faith of forging documents leaves me fairly unsympathetic though, surely an exemption could have been sought.

You could also argue that the burden is on the player to prove a national connection which I don't disagree with.
 

Bruce_ma gooshvili

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I'm not to concerned with them calling another nation home but rather why is world rugby drawing a distinction between visiting your nation of birth during quarantine and visiting for a week or two during the offseason.

I know it's not 1:1 but an analogy to American law.
I moved North Carolina to PA during the pandemic to stay with my parents and get out of the city. I always had the intention to return to NC (kept my apartment, kept my parking spot, still enrolled in school there) and under US law that would make me a citizen of NC for the very few instances it matters. If the Spanish player always had the intention to return to Spain after the pandemic I don't know why this hiatus in his residency is different than a vacation.
It's the length of time spent outside of Spain in one qualifying year that matters in the case of the Saffa VDB who wanted to play for Spain. I think the limit was 60 days but due to the season in Spain being shorter than Tier1 he spent 127 days away in one year. In part because at no point did anyone in the Spanish union tell the poor fellow there was any such rule.

If the Spanish union pursue this argument (which I've not personally seen confirmation of), it's like comparing apples with pears as VDB was disqualified on far firmer grounds. I don't see it having any bearing on Tier1 sides (due to the longer domestic seasons and more professional unions) but flagged it up for interest.

On a purely personal standpoint I'd reiterate I don't have the slightest issue with any of these guys qualifying on residency.
 

die_mole

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Screen Shot 2022 05 17 at 20207 PM

so the 60 days is mentioned in a guidance document but it doesn't appear to be a bright line rule. I think it's a bit harsh to say that a young person going back to their parents during a global pandemic lessens the impact of moving to another country. It would be interesting to see if they provided evidence of his living arrangement in Spain. However I do think the fact that they (whoever initiated the idea) forged documents suggests something was up. If anything I hope they pursue this just to force World Rugby to establish a precedent.
 

Bruce_ma gooshvili

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Here is the independent solicitor's interpretation and judgement. Incredibly damning of Spain.


It veers into subjectivity in my opinion and has an even harder line than a self confessed eligibility fanatic like myself would take. Check out this bombshell which is what I (and the fella on Twitter) was alluding to.

"Residency doesn't start when you move but only when you consider somewhere home, so any press interview or media post referring to your initial country as "home" could very arguably re-set the clock".

There is definitely smoke here for Tier1 unions, but I think World Rugby would be unlikely to apply that interpretation on it's own 'kith and kin'.
 

die_mole

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Thank you very much for the link; didn't realize they have gone through this already.
§13¶4 Okay are we going to start asking all players who qualify on residency when they actually decided that their new nation is their home. Cause that is a total binary thing.

§13¶1 The break in residency was actually in 2019 which really runs counter to everything I've heard at least. Makes sense why they ruled the way they did.

§25 Spain needs to get better at lying and World Rugby needs to get better at recognizing lying.

§26 hashtags came to bite him in the ass

§27 119 of his 127 days spent away in 2019 were in South Africa. Apparently the fact that he refers to himself as a "Saffa" is "not insignificant". Does this mean every white American without a personality qualifies for Ireland?

§35 supra my comments on §13¶1 I need to pay attention more the original article did say it was in 2019 he was gone.

§38 Judicial Committee apparently body language experts

§41 He was living in a "club house" with other players which I think is relevant. He didn't have his own permanent housing which more like living on campus than renting a place near campus and living there year round.

§43 now we are getting way too subjective about when the player feels a place has become his home. Isn't the whole point of the criteria to make eligibility objective?

§50¶b He visited his parents after the season was over. A bit harsh to count that against him.

§50¶f Kind of waving any the fact that his dad was sick during 2019 and that is why spent such a long time in South Africa during that offseason. Say that testimony was not consistent with written testimony.

§50¶h Saying he should have flown back between his friend's wedding and his dad heading back to work; which there was a month in between. Apparently World Rugby doesn't care about this guy's carbon footprint.
 

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Bruce_ma gooshvili

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****. The quote I used on residency attributed to the solicitor is not in the document. It's a quote from someone who reviewed the document. Mea culpa!

Schoeman can probably rest easy despite paragraph 4 of section 13 (which is pretty much aligned to the quote I referenced, but not as firm).
 

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So Izzy Folau eligible for Tonga this year.
 

Bruce_ma gooshvili

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I'm not clear if it is only those four named players in this article that Tonga have selected using the new eligibility rules. There is at least one other.


Kolomatangi was capped by Hong Kong in November 2019, but may be available to Tonga on a technicality before Dec 2022 and is named in this squad. Tonga better be sure because if they field him in a RWC qualifier (ironically likely against Hong Kong) and he is found as ineligible, then that'll be another country eliminated from the RWC due to unions pursuing players developed and/or captured by other unions.


If the player wasn't eligible for Hong Kong in Nov 2019 but they fielded him in a test then Hong Kong must be fined.
 

TRF_Olyy

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That really sucks for Hong Kong - trying to get into their first ever World Cup and suddenly they're against 40 odd All Black caps and 70 odd Wallaby caps
 

Cruz_del_Sur

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loose eligibility rules lead to some exploiting them in ways that were not intended by the creators of such rules

1653829843202
 

Bruce_ma gooshvili

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"Lets do the time warp again!"

This report appears quite thorough and indicates Romania will now likely be eliminated from the RWC, granting Portugal auto qualification and putting Russia or the eliminated Spain into the repechage (if my top of the head calculations are correct).

Another player who in 2019 wouldn't have been expected to qualify for residency until 2024 (so probably wasn't thinking of it) but because they extended the 3 year residency period at at the 11th hour, will have been captured by Romania without having been taking residency seriously in 2019.


The initial reaction from Romania is that this is in error. For example, the first photograph is of the wrong player! So for Romania's sake they will be hoping this is inaccurate poop stirring from Spain.

For Tier1, the fact they generally only recruit foreign developed players with a view to capturing them on residency (excluding perhaps Glasgow and Edinburgh) may save their bacon from something similar.
 
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die_mole

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I love how moving to a country for the sole purpose of playing professional rugby is more legitimate for residency purposes than having a dude play semi-pro or amateur rugby.

Spain in the repechage is bad news bears.
 

Bruce_ma gooshvili

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Rumours that Romania had Tomane authorised previously by World Rugby. My purely speculative opinion is World Rugby could change that position in response to new information. With a rule of 60 days maximum except in exceptional circumstances, having your good lady post about spending 3 months in Hungary (albeit in a town reportedly bordering Romania) looks like something well worth investigating.

Checking the points, since Spain were only deducted 10 points, that would keep them ahead of Russia (who would be a longshot for obvious reasons).
 
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