New race quotas for SA rugby

[TRF_stormer2010]

Fair enough in the job market and though I accept that sport is professional these days this just flies against the soul of what sport is or at least should be.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You can't change your argument half way through, after saying that you need to be 100kg to play rugby, then saying you actually need to go to private school.

Accessibility is different to how expensive the game is to play.

The game is not inherently more expensive to play than football is.

As far as I am aware Fiji has comparable levels of poverty to SA and Rugby is the most popular team sport there.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Didn't they have a white goalkeeper at one time?

Anyway, player selection based on anything other than skill or game plan is not on.

I'm quite sure that it is against the spirit of rugby. Perhaps the iRB should take a leaf from FIFA's book, and threaten to suspend SARU from the iRB unless the policiy is dropped. They did once before, when blacks and coloured were discriminated against for selection, so why not threaten it again now that the shoe is on the other foot.

That white goalkeeper you're referring to is probably Hans Vonk. Played and lived in Holland almost his entire life. I met the guy a couple of times and he was upset when he was dropped in favor of black players back in the late 90's.

Over the last 20 years, I can only think of a handful of white players in Bafana Bafana. Matthew Booth, Hans Vonk, Neil Tovey, Glenn Salmon, Pierre Issa, Eric Tinkler and Mark Williams.

If you compare that to the big number of black and coloured players who represented the Springboks or were called up in the same era:

Chester Williams, Breyton Paulse, Owen Nkumane, Kaya Malotana, Wayne Julies, Lawrence Sephaka, Thando Manana, Bolla Conradie, Ashwin Willemse, Gcobani Bobo, Hanyani Shimangi, Tim Dlulane, Solly Tyibilika, Jongi Nokwe, Tonderai Chavhanga, Akona Ndungane, Odwa Ndungane, JP Pietersen, Chiliboy Ralepelle, Kabamba Floors, Brian Mujati, Tendai Mtawarira, Earl Rose, Heini Adams, Ashley Johnson, Bandise Maku, Lwazi Mvovo, Lionel Mapoe, Raymond Rhule, Trevor Nyakane, Siya Kolisi

 

[smartcooky]

That white goalkeeper you're referring to is probably Hans Vonk. i

Yep, thats him!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Didn't they have a white goalkeeper at one time?

Anyway, player selection based on anything other than skill or game plan is not on.

I'm quite sure that it is against the spirit of rugby. Perhaps the iRB should take a leaf from FIFA's book, and threaten to suspend SARU from the iRB unless the policiy is dropped. They did once before, when blacks and coloured were discriminated against for selection, so why not threaten it again now that the shoe is on the other foot.

That white goalkeeper you're referring to is probably Hans Vonk. Played and lived in Holland almost his entire life. I met the guy a couple of times and he was upset when he was dropped in favor of black players back in the late 90's.

Over the last 20 years, I can only think of a handful of white players in Bafana Bafana. Matthew Booth, Hans Vonk, Neil Tovey, Glenn Salmon, Pierre Issa, Eric Tinkler and Mark Williams.

If you compare that to the big number of black and coloured players who represented the Springboks or were called up in the same era:

Chester Williams, Breyton Paulse, Owen Nkumane, Kaya Malotana, Wayne Julies, Lawrence Sephaka, Thando Manana, Bolla Conradie, Ashwin Willemse, Gcobani Bobo, Hanyani Shimangi, Tim Dlulane, Solly Tyibilika, Jongi Nokwe, Tonderai Chavhanga, Akona Ndungane, Odwa Ndungane, JP Pietersen, Chiliboy Ralepelle, Kabamba Floors, Brian Mujati, Tendai Mtawarira, Earl Rose, Heini Adams, Ashley Johnson, Bandise Maku, Lwazi Mvovo, Lionel Mapoe, Raymond Rhule, Trevor Nyakane, Siya Kolisi

White =/= Boer. Until a Boertjie plays for Bafana Bafana I will not support racial quota's in sport.

 

[nickdnz]

That white goalkeeper you're referring to is probably Hans Vonk. Played and lived in Holland almost his entire life. I met the guy a couple of times and he was upset when he was dropped in favor of black players back in the late 90's.

Over the last 20 years, I can only think of a handful of white players in Bafana Bafana. Matthew Booth, Hans Vonk, Neil Tovey, Glenn Salmon, Pierre Issa, Eric Tinkler and Mark Williams.

If you compare that to the big number of black and coloured players who represented the Springboks or were called up in the same era:

Chester Williams, Breyton Paulse, Owen Nkumane, Kaya Malotana, Wayne Julies, Lawrence Sephaka, Thando Manana, Bolla Conradie, Ashwin Willemse, Gcobani Bobo, Hanyani Shimangi, Tim Dlulane, Solly Tyibilika, Jongi Nokwe, Tonderai Chavhanga, Akona Ndungane, Odwa Ndungane, JP Pietersen, Chiliboy Ralepelle, Kabamba Floors, Brian Mujati, Tendai Mtawarira, Earl Rose, Heini Adams, Ashley Johnson, Bandise Maku, Lwazi Mvovo, Lionel Mapoe, Raymond Rhule, Trevor Nyakane, Siya Kolisi

......Bryan Habana, Ricky Januarie, Zane Kirshner, Juan de Jongh, Adi Jacobs, Bjorn Basson, Trevor Nyakane, Gurthro Steenkamp, Gio Aplon, Eddie Andrews, Elton Jantjes, Conrad Jantjes...

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

A black guy once told me Mujati and Mtawarira don't count as black players because they are not born in South Africa and therefore don't represent the black South African population. Funny huh?

 

[profitius]

Politics should be left out of sport. The worst thing of all about it was the ruling that 2 players had to be forwards. Nonsense.

Pacific Islanders are a special breed, they have good genetics impressive, such as Jamaica in athletics. Jamaica only has 2 million people, yet they are leaders in athletics.

A normal person who want to deal with these monsters, you need the highest level training to compete as equals.

They're different. Every type of body shape has its own strengths and weaknesses. PIs have a speed advantage over Whites but don't have the workrate of Whites, which is why the Australian and NZ packs named this weekend are very White compared to the backs.


People say the Japanese are too small but I don't agree with that. They could develop into a good rugby team yet playing a style that suits them.

 

[nickdnz]

Politics should be left out of sport. The worst thing of all about it was the ruling that 2 players had to be forwards. Nonsense.

They're different. Every type of body shape has its own strengths and weaknesses. PIs have a speed advantage over Whites but don't have the workrate of Whites, which is why the Australian and NZ packs named this weekend are very White compared to the backs.

People say the Japanese are too small but I don't agree with that. They could develop into a good rugby team yet playing a style that suits them.

If you ever get the chance you should read Brendan Hokowhitu's "Race tactics: The racialised athletic body." - it illistrates why even this kind of stuff is pretty harmful.

 

[LittleGuy]

If you ever get the chance you should read Brendan Hokowhitu's "Race tactics: The racialised athletic body." - it illistrates why even this kind of stuff is pretty harmful.

Is this the article nick? Just a few pages in, will have to read later am at lunch now and it looks to lengthy to get done now.

http://eprintstetumu.otago.ac.nz/11/01/Hokowhitu_Race_tactics.pdf

 

[Jaguares]

You can't change your argument half way through, after saying that you need to be 100kg to play rugby, then saying you actually need to go to private school.

Accessibility is different to how expensive the game is to play.

The game is not inherently more expensive to play than football is.

As far as I am aware Fiji has comparable levels of poverty to SA and Rugby is the most popular team sport there.

Excellent example for my theory. Fiji have great players, especially great wingers, they have great sevens players but they never excel in rugby XV. Why? One reason is because their scrum is a mess. And why they don't have a good scrum? I haven't the answer to everything but I think one of the reasons must be that Fijian teams don't have access to scrum machines, only those who can leave the country and play abroad have access to these machines:

With this machine, a English forward alone can train the scrum, while a Fijian forward can't train alone because they don't have access to that machine:

This is one reason why England have better forwards than Fiji, and nutrition is an important detail in a pack of forwards. They have many good backs but few Fijian forwards good, if they had the same access to nutrition that is in England they would have more and better forwards.

This is one reason why Fiji has many good wingers, many good sevens players but they can never form a good pack of forwards. While in England access to a scrum machine is much simpler than in Fiji, any small English team it has access to a scrum machine. While in Fiji are few clubs that can have a scrum machine, so they can never excel as a team, its players excel individually but they will never have a good scrum because they have no resources for that.

RESOURCES = ACCESS = MONEY

Regards

 

[ratsapprentice]

That argument would be valid if you were specifically talking about producing tight 5 players.
And that is not down to not having scrum machines, that's down to poor countries not producing lots of fat people.

You accept that Fiji produces wonderful players, many of whom would have had no access to specialist equipment, not even balls.

The problem is that rugby is mainly entrenched in middle/upper-class/*insert relevant demographic* society in most countries.
Something like 75% of the England team is privately educated. That means that 7% of the population supplies three quarters of the top players.
That isn't because working class kids don't have access to scrum machines, it's because they don't even know the sport exists.

The answer is getting kids under 10 years old to play 7s/touch/tag rugby. For which all you really need is a ball, but a bottle filled with sand or stones will suffice if you live in poverty.
Issues regarding specialist equipment don't really exist because by the time they are necessary people are playing at a level where they are being looked after financially by a club or union.

I don't know why you are being so cagey about your nationality either, I'm not trying to scam you.
It's relevant to this argument because I (and others) don't think you understand the development process of junior players.

 

[jonny24]

It's not like a scrum machine is that hard tocome by anyway. My team has one, and we're a small country club that barely comes up with 15 guys very weekend. You can make a scrum machine out of scrap wood if you have to.

That's not really the point anyway. It just comes down to a difference in culture. Black kids play soccer. Anyway, if the best rugby is played in the private schools, can you really blame the scouts for doing most of their selcting there? They must be satisfied with the talent they are finding. Whether they are white or black has nothing to do with how good they are at the sport. now, if socio-economic circustances dictate that more white people are in these private schools, then its seems like thats what SA should be trying to change, not squad selections.

Besides, if the black population doesn't watch rugby, then who ccares how many of the players are black? Who cares in any case?

 

[LittleGuy]

It's not like a scrum machine is that hard tocome by anyway. My team has one, and we're a small country club that barely comes up with 15 guys very weekend. You can make a scrum machine out of scrap wood if you have to.

That's not really the point anyway. It just comes down to a difference in culture. Black kids play soccer. Anyway, if the best rugby is played in the private schools, can you really blame the scouts for doing most of their selcting there? They must be satisfied with the talent they are finding. Whether they are white or black has nothing to do with how good they are at the sport. now, if socio-economic circustances dictate that more white people are in these private schools, then its seems like thats what SA should be trying to change, not squad selections.

Besides, if the black population doesn't watch rugby, then who ccares how many of the players are black? Who cares in any case?

The Georgians used to practice their scrum against old Soviet era tractors. Where there is a will there is a way.

 

[SelimNiai]

The Georgians used to practice their scrum against old Soviet era tractors. Where there is a will there is a way.

And often that wasn't even at a training ession

 

[Da Grappla]

Racist, totalitarian, against every freedom (economic, moral, of thought) of the individual...Egalitarianism in itself is bad enough. This is even worse.

As I said in the Mandela's last hours thread, you're going to end up as Zimbabwe sooner or later.

 

[nickdnz]

Is this the article nick? Just a few pages in, will have to read later am at lunch now and it looks to lengthy to get done now.

http://eprintstetumu.otago.ac.nz/11/01/Hokowhitu_Race_tactics.pdf

Yep, that's the one.

 

[Jaguares]

The Georgians used to practice their scrum against old Soviet era tractors. Where there is a will there is a way.

Amazing, do you have pictures?

Regards