New Zealand Haka Is Arrogance?

[Dizzy]

I was Kaea at my highschool, the stance and stamping? its really not a big deal

like I said, it varies with each individual. and whether you're doing it correctly. Honestly, alot of people who think they know how to stand when they do the Haka, really don't. Even the hard out Maori.

 

[ranger]

thats impressive and great to see, not sure how it changes anything though

I was pointing out that its not like it wasn't very important for us too..

like I said, it varies with each individual. and whether you're doing it correctly. Honestly, alot of people who think they know how to stand when they do the Haka, really don't. Even the hard out Maori.

Im pretty sure i'm doing it correctly. Grew up with it, been to manu korero, been to nationals. Its just that if you are in the gym squating iron 3 days a week, then standing in haka stance for a couple minutes isn't a huge deal.

The moral of the story is that there is very little physical output from doing the haka before a rugby game. Teams aren't disadvantaged at all by doing it. I can't beleive im having to point this out.

 

[Sam Owen]

The All Blacks who train probably 8 hours a day, do squat sessions longer than the whole haka and with heavy weights, plyometrics squats etc etc...if you asked a bunch of them if they felt the haka hinders their performance or takes a vital amount out of them before the game, dont you think they'd turn around to each other and grin or giggle?...

Some opposition teams feel that the haka is an unfair advantage to the All Blacks and that it hypes them at a crucial time after the relaxing anthems and just before the kick off. Thats all Ive heard from an opponents perspective, they definately dont seem to think it makes the ABs any lesser.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I was pointing out that its not like it wasn't very important for us too..
The moral of the story is that there is very little physical output from doing the haka before a rugby game. Teams aren't disadvantaged at all by doing it. I can't beleive im having to point this out.

and my point was only it depends on how your doing it, some people can obviously put in alot more effort, more than just stand in the stance

I never said it wasn't important to you, i just said it was to us and part of how we showed that importance was to put max effort into it

and i dont remember anyone saying they werent fit enough to do it, they obviously can

I think you guys are seeing an argument here when there isn't one

This has also drifted majorly off point, no, i dont think its arrogance, its tradition and an important side note to the game in general

we do have to be careful it does not become more important than the game, the jersey or sportsmanship in general.

It would be interesting if it was only done in NZ, it might become more of a "site" as unless you travelled (to NZ) to see your team play you wouldn't get to witness one

 

[Sam Owen]

From the All Blacks point of view its really easy.... The All Blacks dont HAVE to the Haka before every game... it hinders performance more than anything....

Theres the beginning of this doing the haka is taking away from the All Blacks or whatever...

how much energy do you think they exert performing the Haka?? have you ever though that perhaps that energy could be put to use in the game?

shiznit continues his views and insinuates that the haka takes away from the All Blacks

I can completely see what he is saying.

You understand and 'completely' see what he is saying. So you agree with him that the haka 'hinders performance' and that it takes away from the players.

and I dont remember anyone saying they wernt fit enough to do it, they obviously can

I think you guys are seeing an argument here when there isn't one

Fair enough, no one said they wernt fit enough but then what is shiznit insinuating?....well its obvious what hes insinuating 'cos Ive pointed it out for us in his posts above and you completely agreed Jabby thats why there is a debate.

Its obvious that shiznit thinks that the haka is too much for the All Blacks and you Jabby 'completely' see what he is saying or understand or agree and fair enough, thats all good but some of us disagree, thats all.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I'm not sure how you can admit that no one has said it is too much for the Ab's...and yet still thnk that's what's been said

my only point is that some people do a haka in a way I which it takes effort

I did see what he said, a haka can use energy, and so choosing to do something in spite of that shows how important it is

 

[Sam Owen]

I'm not sure how you can admit that no one has said it is too much for the Ab's...and yet still thnk that's what's been said

I clearly wrote 'insinuations' because its clear thats what hes insinuating. My proof is in his posts and you 'completely' agreed with him meaning you completely agreed that the haka hinders performance and so on...COMPLETELY was the word you used or perhaps misused as now you dont 'completely' seem to agree. If it does hinders performance then its too much for the ABs but many think it doesnt.

My posts up above is undeniable proof because its yours and shiznits words. Please read shiznits first 2 quotes on my post and then read your later post. Its right there in plain English for you and me to read, clear as day.

I do understand your point in the haka taking huge effort if done properly and it being strenuous but I dont think it hinders All Black performance.

'The haka hinders All Black performance', I could never completely agree with that. Maybe I should dare someone to walk into a pub full of drunk Maoris watching an AB game with a T-Shirt saying 'The haka hinders All Black performance', it'll be interesting to see the brothers response/reaction.

Well hopefully thats the end of this debate. I see where you and shiznit are coming from, I know shiznit has seen this thread but hasnt said anything. Yes the haka does take a very very very little away from these 8-hours-a-day-trainning-professionals but thats replaced by adrenalin Im sure. You'll find that after the ABs do the haka they usually win and its been that way for awhile now so...

Lets remember the ABs are pro athletes and just because YOU found it hard to do the haka hardout and then play Rugby it doesnt mean that they would either.

 

[bayzer]

Not really its a traditional Maori war dance.

 

[Sam Owen]

Not really its a traditional Maori war dance.

Lol, is it?...

 

[markshaw]

Close this! The guys an idiot

 

[nickdnz]

Lol, is it?...

He's just trying to get 10 posts, by posting any slighlty relevant comment. He had like 8 posts in a row, all of which were 10 words or less.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I don't think I should get you anymore worked up so I'm just goin to leave it

Maybe I should have kept my posts to ten words or less!

 

[smartcooky]

Not ANOTHER boring anti-Haka thread?

 

[Sam Owen]

I don't think I should get you anymore worked up so I'm just goin to leave it

Maybe I should have kept my posts to ten words or less!

Write as you wish Jabby, you push your points without resorting to insults. I respect that. Yes it is an open forum where there will no doubt be some insults time to time but when the insults pop out thats when no-one gets their points across. You've made your point, all-good brother it is a tricky debate.

However it was quite fun 'cos the first thing I do when I jump on my computer is look to read what you had to say lol.

 

[matjam]

Just to put my 2 cents in even if it has already been put forward by someone else. If you have not noticed I am a Kiwi born and bred and we have to learn about a lot of this stuff in school. Basically the Haka is a ancient maori war dance that is used to set a challenge to the opposition. When the All Blacks or whoever do it they are doing the same thing, now to call this arrogance proves either you need to research more or you are arrogant. The Haka should be allowed before a rugby game as it is cultural and is now expected by anyone who watches the All Blacks or most other New Zealand teams for that matter. Now IMO I don't have a problem with fans or the opposition trying to drown it out because usually that gets the ABs more riled up which is kinda the point of the Haka is to give the team some more flair. And in reply to the Welsh game where the All Blacks did the Haka in changing rooms they had every right to do this as they are just performing the pre-game ritual.

 

[hiz]

I don't think the haka itself is arrogant but perhaps some of the demands around it can come across that way. It is a challenge, and while I feel anthems should be respected, I don't see that the haka demands silence from the crowd (I like the haka as a tradition but part of me would love the Murrayfield crowd to sing all the way through it as a form of counter challenge - Scots Wha Hae if I were to have my preference) and the opposition players should be free to stand and face it or ignore it as they see fit. I don't even see that it should necessarily be performed between the anthems and kick off as this is perhaps what gives it its psychological advantage - implying that the All Blacks, or whichever team is performing it, are somehow worthy of greater consideration and say that their rivals. Or perhaps it being performed at that point lessens home advantage when performed during away matches - the hosts' anthem is sung second, meaning their crowd and team are hyped and it's the away team, if any, who are unnerved - putting in this pause allows the away team to hush the crowd, the home team to lose that bit of adrenalin and the performers benefit from that final boost instead. Perhaps then, it should be down to the host to specify the timing (seeing as their are already being courteous by even allowing it to be performed) - possibly at the end of the warm up perhaps, or before the anthem so still in front of a full crowd and the TV cameras.

 

[ranger]

I don't think the haka itself is arrogant but perhaps some of the demands around it can come across that way. It is a challenge, and while I feel anthems should be respected, I don't see that the haka demands silence from the crowd (I like the haka as a tradition but part of me would love the Murrayfield crowd to sing all the way through it as a form of counter challenge - Scots Wha Hae if I were to have my preference) and the opposition players should be free to stand and face it or ignore it as they see fit. I don't even see that it should necessarily be performed between the anthems and kick off as this is perhaps what gives it its psychological advantage - implying that the All Blacks, or whichever team is performing it, are somehow worthy of greater consideration and say that their rivals. Or perhaps it being performed at that point lessens home advantage when performed during away matches - the hosts' anthem is sung second, meaning their crowd and team are hyped and it's the away team, if any, who are unnerved - putting in this pause allows the away team to hush the crowd, the home team to lose that bit of adrenalin and the performers benefit from that final boost instead. Perhaps then, it should be down to the host to specify the timing (seeing as their are already being courteous by even allowing it to be performed) - possibly at the end of the warm up perhaps, or before the anthem so still in front of a full crowd and the TV cameras.

The only problem i have with this is that there are only 22 guys doing the haka, and there are what 70000 guys in the stadium. Thats not a counter challenge at all, thats just a **** load of people yelling over the top of a very few people. I dont see what the appeal in that is..

If only the players themselves were singing in response then that would be pretty cool.

 

[nickdnz]

I don't think the haka itself is arrogant but perhaps some of the demands around it can come across that way. It is a challenge, and while I feel anthems should be respected, I don't see that the haka demands silence from the crowd (I like the haka as a tradition but part of me would love the Murrayfield crowd to sing all the way through it as a form of counter challenge - Scots Wha Hae if I were to have my preference) and the opposition players should be free to stand and face it or ignore it as they see fit. I don't even see that it should necessarily be performed between the anthems and kick off as this is perhaps what gives it its psychological advantage - implying that the All Blacks, or whichever team is performing it, are somehow worthy of greater consideration and say that their rivals. Or perhaps it being performed at that point lessens home advantage when performed during away matches - the hosts' anthem is sung second, meaning their crowd and team are hyped and it's the away team, if any, who are unnerved - putting in this pause allows the away team to hush the crowd, the home team to lose that bit of adrenalin and the performers benefit from that final boost instead. Perhaps then, it should be down to the host to specify the timing (seeing as their are already being courteous by even allowing it to be performed) - possibly at the end of the warm up perhaps, or before the anthem so still in front of a full crowd and the TV cameras.

For the same reason that it's disrespectful for a Scottish team to have their national anthem sung over by 30,000 people singing God Defend New Zealand. Yes it's a challenge, and also very disrespectful. And to your second point, the Haka is performed by invitation, not because the All Blacks just really want it to be done. It some off as extreme arrogance to say "we want the haka, but when we want it".

In terms of this magical momentum that the crowd seems to give, if you're not pumped going into a test, go home.

 

[hiz]

For the same reason that it's disrespectful for a Scottish team to have their national anthem sung over by 30,000 people singing God Defend New Zealand. Yes it's a challenge, and also very disrespectful. And to your second point, the Haka is performed by invitation, not because the All Blacks just really want it to be done. It some off as extreme arrogance to say "we want the haka, but when we want it".

In terms of this magical momentum that the crowd seems to give, if you're not pumped going into a test, go home.

But it's not your anthem - it's an additional challenge, one that is designed to intimidate and my suggestion is simply that that challenge should be responded to not just meekly accepted as is now expected. The fact that it doesn't really intimidate is by the by however, there are factors to it's existence and timing that gives a psychological advantage to the performers. It's not performed by invitation - it is simply a tradition that nobody dare refuse (look at the fussed caused when the Welsh did). It's your team that want it, that gain from it and the fact it's accompanied by expectation and arrogance is why there is so much debate on it continuing.

As for your last point, comparing the home and away records of teams in leagues, competitions and sports around the world will tell you the advantage of a home crowd.

 

[hiz]

The only problem i have with this is that there are only 22 guys doing the haka, and there are what 70000 guys in the stadium. Thats not a counter challenge at all, thats just a **** load of people yelling over the top of a very few people. I dont see what the appeal in that is..

If only the players themselves were singing in response then that would be pretty cool.

I would agree that even just the players singing their way through it would be enough but I don't think you'd ever get the entire crowd singing outwith the anthems anyway. And the reason that Scots Wha Hae appeals to me is that is starts off on a very low quiet tone, almost under your breath, so wouldn't be so obviously intrusive as yelling out (not that FoS is particularly shouty either). I just don't think it should be taken unopposed, and to me that doesn't seem to even be within the spirit of it, so some form or crowd response during or immediately afterwards would be accepting the challenge and enhance the tradition. What I don't like however, is crowds booing during the haka (it is intentionally disrespectful rather than an acceptance of the challenge) and that does seem to be creeping more and more into things and was notably loud during the Irish match this autumn - perhaps encouraging some form of more positive response would stop this before it becomes worse.