New Zealand v England

[Incredible Schalk]

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Lauakis a joke :angry:
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To be honest I thought Lauaki did very well coming on early for McCaw. He got involved for once and used his power both in the tackle and at the back of the scrum. Yes, he still needs to lift his intensity before I can fully appreciate him but he somewhat redeemed himself this week after last weeks performance.

Latimer the 2nd best 7 in the country? No way. If someone's going to be called up if McCaw is badly injured it will be Chris Masoe.
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I was a bit strong there but he was cack over the series, last week especially, forward pass and countless dropped balls. This week he was better, scored and try and carried reasonably but again he dropped the balll a couple of times. Masoe anyday for me.



Also apparently Adam Thomson is the second quickest over 25 metres in the All Black squad, second to only Sivivatu. I dont know much about Wulf except that he has Ojo on his arse, is he quite a slow wing?
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From an England perspective, Thompson was a nuisance. It seems that either all the players NZ pick are awesome; or, more likely, the ones who come in get an armchair ride - it's easy when there's quick ball and the likes of Carter & McCaw are playing well.

How did Wulf have Ojo? Wulf hardly touched the ball...
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Because he sat Ojo on his arse when he ran at him.
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oh yeah fair enough. thought TO was good otherwise
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He barely touched the ball, he also was in no man's land when Lauaki scored, i thought he was poor to be honest.

 

[woosaah]

Ok, i have been hearing all week how goo dthe back three of england are. But when they pass the ball to flood, or the other guy, they either kicked it or passed it out to another forward for a run. I didnt see a baclking move the whole game. The only time the centres got the ball was in open play or when they were in the rucks, they pretty much seamed to be extra forwards that they didnt get the ball passed to.

so frustrating as you want to see a good game but one tema doesnt use everythign they have looking forward to more of a competition in the tri nations

 

[fcukernaut]

Did Thompson really play that well? The guys I was watching it with were all in agreement he had a shocker, dropping balls, throwing dodgy passes etc... Then in the post match talks and everyone said he played great, we were like wtf?

Now everyone on here is saying he played great. We mustn't have watched the game all that closely then. Kahui was a beast though, Tindall will indeed be having nightmares.

Now who to start at 13? Smith or Kahui? I'm still backing the Nonu/Smith combination. [/b]

Thompson was pressing a little when he had the ball in hand, but his work rate at the breakdown and tackle area was outstanding. I think he made something like 10 tackles through 50 minutes and i'm not sure what his full time tally was but I'm guessing somewhere in the 15-18 mark. I think he also directly made 2 turnovers from just straight poaching and then probably another 2 or 3 that resulted in scrums or penalties. He was also out in support a lot.

 

[Prestwick]

My god, when will people learn that NOON & TINDALL DO NOT WORK WELL TOGETHER!

I mean, come on, I was feeling deja vu from 2004/5 all over again. Whats worse, it was almost as if our stellar rugby journo machine had suddenly suffered collective amnesia roughly four years after demanding Robinson's head for insisting on selecting Noon & Tindall at center.

"Oh well, at least we'll be secure defensively" ...my god.

I just think it is a shame that an England back must find it so difficult gain a level of confidence in a position.

Everyone has a bad game, every AB has, yet you need to have a certain amount of faith in the players and they in turn will grow into the position.

If England can settle their knee jerk reaction to dropping players and gain the players trust in a structure that the players know will grow them into their chosen role, England will again be a force to be reckoned with.

[/b]

But! We must not get carried away, and IBB has a point. We need to see how we can adapt either Noon or Tindall into a role. I think re-uniting Anthony Allen with Jamie Noon would be great. Bringing the capable mind of Allen into the attack would release the pressure off of Noon and leave him to do what he does best: pwning n00bs with thumping tackles.

In the end a fascinating series. It definitely shows how far Martin Johnson has to go to match what is still the most successful All Black outfit in rugby history...more or less..am I right?

 

[KZNSharksFan]

My god, the AB's were hitting good form in that game, if they continue to gain in confidence and establish some solid partnerships in the mid field and back three, the tri nations could become a washout!

 

[sanzar]

Maybe, maybe not... England, despite all the hype about their forwards etc, really didn't provide much of a test in the end and I don't think we'll really know how good the ABs are until the TN starts proper.

Personally I was a little surprised by last nights performance... this was apparently the best squad England had available to them and by all accounts they were set to give the ABs a real solid testing, but in the end they were nothing short of pathetic. The ABs were class again last night, but they were still far from perfect and 2 of their tries were so easy you'd have thought NZ was playing Italy instead of England... What happened their I have to ask? Wasn't England supposedly really disappointed in their defense last week and determined to not leak easy points this time? Cause if that was the plan then WTF, because NZ ended up scoring one more try than they did last week despite mixing their combinations and losing their 2 most influential forwards before half time!
Don't get me wrong, I love watching the ABs flog England, but with all the talk that goes on up their about the lack luster quality of the S14, they really need to put up or shut up when they send these sides down.
As for the ABs, I was disturbed by how well they all gelled with still such little game time, but from an Aussie TN perspective was encouraged by the troubles they had at line outs and also happy to see that Andy Ellis appears to be possibly the worst of the TN half backs going around (might have been a one off, but seriously, I thought he had a shocker...).

 

[Prestwick]

Maybe, maybe not... England, despite all the hype about their forwards etc, really didn't provide much of a test in the end and I don't think we'll really know how good the ABs are until the TN starts proper.

Personally I was a little surprised by last nights performance... this was apparently the best squad England had available to them and by all accounts they were set to give the ABs a real solid testing, but in the end they were nothing short of pathetic. The ABs were class again last night, but they were still far from perfect and 2 of their tries were so easy you'd have thought NZ was playing Italy instead of England... What happened their I have to ask? Wasn't England supposedly really disappointed in their defense last week and determined to not leak easy points this time? Cause if that was the plan then WTF, because NZ ended up scoring one more try than they did last week despite mixing their combinations and losing their 2 most influential forwards before half time!

Don't get me wrong, I love watching the ABs flog England, but with all the talk that goes on up their about the lack luster quality of the S14, they really need to put up or shut up when they send these sides down.
As for the ABs, I was disturbed by how well they all gelled with still such little game time, but from an Aussie TN perspective was encouraged by the troubles they had at line outs and also happy to see that Andy Ellis appears to be possibly the worst of the TN half backs going around (might have been a one off, but seriously, I thought he had a shocker...). [/b]

England do tend to baffle me sometimes. Look at the guys who they brought with them, Nick Kennedy case in point.

Goddamn Nick Kennedy. Imperious form ALL SEASON, disrupted lineouts from London to to the South of France and then all the goddamn way back again. Even Toulouse with all their (*cough* imported *hack*) talent couldn't beat him. The guy at lock is simply brilliant.

So could somebody explain to me..WHAT WAS THE POINT IN BRINGING HIM IF WE'RE NOT GOING TO PLAY HIM?!?!?!

Another player. Tom Croft. Red hot prospect, bags of power, speed and verve. Played like a demon all year. So what was the point in him coming along if he was just going to sit in the stands picking his nose?!

Don't get me wrong, Borthwick and Kay? Good players..OLD PLAYERS. Sanny, you hit the nail on the head, improbabbly stupid selection breeds complacency. Complacency, the idea that you can trot out the same old words, can say the same old stuff to keep your place, breeds awful performances. Awful performances translate into scores like 44 - 12.

What an utter waste of time this tour was, for both England and New Zealand.

 

[sanzar]

I dunno... maybe it's just a fear factor in the England management. Maybe they think they'll be embarrassed if they DON'T play the conservative card and keep from trying out too many up and comers? Either way it's not the way to play NZ. If you have a well oiled efficient machine like the 2002-03 England side, then sure, play the percentages, but anything short of that requires something more dynamic and inventive if you want to challenge the ABs.

 

[Prestwick]

Mate, I wouldn't want to tour ANYWHERE with that style of management. What kind of signal this sends out to the likes of Allen, Kennedy and Croft that they're going to play second fiddle to the likes of Ben Kay and Mike Tindall for the next 18 months I don't know, but it ain't going to be positive.

 

[ChiefsFan]

Yeah, Ellis isn't great, but that's why Leonard is our starting halfback. Can't wait to see him once he gets back from injury, he'll be like a pocket rocket on crack, except in a good way. He's our number one halfback.

 

[nik]

Well Richie McCaw is out for 6 weeks, so I'm pretty sure the ABs will be looking for a specialist replacement. As for Ali Williams it's not as bad as McCaw's injury.

Also Brendon Leonard will require surgery after an on going knee problem so he will be out for 6 weeks as well.

 

[Incredible Schalk]

Cowan should be the half back, he's got the most experience and as soon as he came on yesterday he really took it to the line well and got a try. Ellis has been lucky to get 3 tests, i rate Cowan and Leonard higher

 

[nam97]

Well Richie McCaw is out for 6 weeks, so I'm pretty sure the ABs will be looking for a specialist replacement. As for Ali Williams it's not as bad as McCaw's injury.

Also Brendon Leonard will require surgery after an on going knee problem so he will be out for 6 weeks as well.
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Yeah, just great eh? And Rokocoko is out 'till the end of the year dammit.

 

[ozzy]

It's always hard to judge ABs against NH teams. 3Ns is always more challenging for the ABs, not just because the teams are man for man superior outfits compared to what the North can produce, but they also know each other and play against one another constantly. This has almost the same equalising effect as heavy rain and is why the tri nation matches are always so close. It's also in these pressure cooker situations that a player's worth at test level can be determined.
Sure Kahui and Thompson looked sublime against the english, but when the pressures really on how will they perform? For me Kahui looks like he has the goods, but Thompson seems to lack the physicality to compete at test level, but time will tell. The other big concerns are Andrew Ellis and Jimmy Cowan. Ellis' passing was quite poor at times against England and he was not under the kind of pressure that the SAF can apply to a halfback at rucks. As for Cowan I have never been convinced that he is test material.
The ABs need a specialist open side for the 3Ns and with Braid injured it might be worth looking at Scott Waldrom, he may not have the size, but he definitely has the speed and the work rate and is tireless in defence. Masoe, may still be carrying a grudge against the ABs following his dropping from the All Blacks. Messam is too big an idiot despite plenty of natural ability and Latimer often has games where he is anonymous. It will be interesting to see who gets the nod.

 

[Gay-Guy]

Totally agree with you ozzy...especially regarding Kahui.

Kahui may be raw and untried against SA and AUS but there are hints that he may be the new 13 as he was very safe defensively with his spot tackling. This is the one thing that Umaga and Bunce had that other AB pretender 13's have not had. Conrad does not spot players....nor does Laulala or even Muliaina. AB 13's are usually looked upon as having FIRST the ability to spot tackle a movement dead.

Kahui may lack out and out pace but perhaps in time he will develop it. Bunce was faster in his 30's than he was in his early career with Auckland.

 

[candybum]

England do tend to baffle me sometimes. Look at the guys who they brought with them, Nick Kennedy case in point.

Goddamn Nick Kennedy. Imperious form ALL SEASON, disrupted lineouts from London to to the South of France and then all the goddamn way back again. Even Toulouse with all their (*cough* imported *hack*) talent couldn't beat him. The guy at lock is simply brilliant.

So could somebody explain to me..WHAT WAS THE POINT IN BRINGING HIM IF WE'RE NOT GOING TO PLAY HIM?!?!?!
. [/b]

Because Rob Andrew is a twat? lol i watch him in his interviews and he's BS.. just BS all the time lol

 

[Steve Booth]

It's always hard to judge ABs against NH teams. 3Ns is always more challenging for the ABs, not just because the teams are man for man superior outfits compared to what the North can produce, but they also know each other and play against one another constantly. This has almost the same equalising effect as heavy rain and is why the tri nation matches are always so close. It's also in these pressure cooker situations that a player's worth at test level can be determined.
[/b]

I don't think the AB's will gain too much from this game, apart from a little bit of confidence. The ABs played really well in the first halves of both games. The second halves were very sloppy. The points difference should have been far greater.

England didn't test the AB's at all. England didn't play any defined "style" of rugby and their game plan was ludicrous. What's the point of kicking big up and unders to one of the best best back three's in world rugby. Why not kick for touch instead and look to to win the ball from your opponents under-performing lineouts.

I look forward to the Tri-Nations.

 

[gingergenius]

Maybe, maybe not... England, despite all the hype about their forwards etc, really didn't provide much of a test in the end and I don't think we'll really know how good the ABs are until the TN starts proper.

Personally I was a little surprised by last nights performance... this was apparently the best squad England had available to them and by all accounts they were set to give the ABs a real solid testing, but in the end they were nothing short of pathetic. The ABs were class again last night, but they were still far from perfect and 2 of their tries were so easy you'd have thought NZ was playing Italy instead of England... What happened their I have to ask? Wasn't England supposedly really disappointed in their defense last week and determined to not leak easy points this time? Cause if that was the plan then WTF, because NZ ended up scoring one more try than they did last week despite mixing their combinations and losing their 2 most influential forwards before half time!
Don't get me wrong, I love watching the ABs flog England, but with all the talk that goes on up their about the lack luster quality of the S14, they really need to put up or shut up when they send these sides down.
As for the ABs, I was disturbed by how well they all gelled with still such little game time, but from an Aussie TN perspective was encouraged by the troubles they had at line outs and also happy to see that Andy Ellis appears to be possibly the worst of the TN half backs going around (might have been a one off, but seriously, I thought he had a shocker...).
[/b]

My list of excuses/ hopelessly optimistic thoughts/ what I'd love England to do:

1. We're a young team, and the only way for young players is up
2. Our pack is potentially an excellent scrummaging, lineout, breakdown and ball-carrying unit.
3. We're missing Ellis and Cipriani, and Care looks amazing for the future.
4. We need to pick either Flood, Wilkinson, Barkley, or Allen at 12, find someone exciting (ie. Waldouck or Tait) at 13 and stick with them.
5. Our squad will have more time together, with hopefully a more patient selection policy, and some home/ 6N fixtures to gain confidence over the next year.
6. We'll beat NZ 100-0 in the RWC final 2011.

If we even dare to lose silly 6N games to rubbish teams like we've done recently I'll cry.

 

[Prestwick]

Ok, i have been hearing all week how goo dthe back three of england are. But when they pass the ball to flood, or the other guy, they either kicked it or passed it out to another forward for a run. I didnt see a baclking move the whole game. The only time the centres got the ball was in open play or when they were in the rucks, they pretty much seamed to be extra forwards that they didnt get the ball passed to.

so frustrating as you want to see a good game but one team doesn't use everything they have looking forward to more of a competition in the tri nations [/b]

This is a bit of a toughie to explain. Simply put, Noon & Tindall just don't work as a center partnership. They were tried several times in 2004 and 2005 but they are simply two crash ball players. Neither are or ever will be the 'definition of technician' that Will Greenwood was, both sadly will always be known for big tackles and running straight forward before going straight to ground.

Thus, when you pair them up, any hope of any kind of dynamic center partnership goes out of the window. I think Toby Flood knew this and opted to pass straight to the wings or take the ball himself.

It is frustrating I know. There are allot more talented centers out there in England who could and should have gone out there. Allen, Geraghty for example are superb prospects.

This coupled with the abject failure of Rob Andrew to even select either Kennedy or Croft for either of the games in New Zealand creates a bitter atmosphere in English Rugby.

EDIT: Did anyone think Luke Narraway did well at eight though? For all the snide remarks about him not being first choice player at Gloucester, I thought he was pretty good. I'd still want to give Jordan Crane a go to see how well he works with Rees & Haskell.

 

[Gavin]

EDIT: Did anyone think Luke Narraway did well at eight though? For all the snide remarks about him not being first choice player at Gloucester, I thought he was pretty good. I'd still want to give Jordan Crane a go to see how well he works with Rees & Haskell.[/b]

I thought Narraway played very well. Every time the ball was kicked short or high by New Zealand, Narraway seemed to position him perfectly to catch the ball. Also he seemed to constantly make ground when he got go forward ball.