North Island vs South island

Discussion in 'General Rugby Union' started by Umaga's Witness, May 30, 2020.

  1. Umaga's Witness

    Umaga's Witness First XV

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    [start of edit]

    now they have decided on the criteria, I thought it would be good to list the pool of players, available to each side, up front for easy reference-

    LH


    south
    Moody
    Hodgman
    d lienert-brown
    Allan
    bower
    de groot

    north
    Tuinukuafe
    Moli
    johnstone
    ross
    lindenmuth
    i. tuungafasi
    armstrong
    t. mafileo
    numia
    rakete-stones

    HK

    south

    Taylor
    Coltman
    McAlister
    jackson

    north
    Coles
    Aumua
    Slater
    Dixon
    Parsons
    riccitelli
    eklund
    taukei'aho
    tolai

    TH

    south
    Laulala
    tokalahi
    lomax
    jager
    bower

    north
    Tu'ungafasi
    Taavao
    o'neill
    s. mafileo
    thwaites
    iosefa-scott
    fidow
    renata

    Lock

    south
    Romano
    Whitelock
    S barrett
    parkinson
    selby-rickit
    dickson
    dunshea
    strange
    allardice

    north
    Retallick
    Tuipolotu
    Blackwell
    whetton
    ah kuoi
    vaa'i
    josh goodhue
    cowley-tuioti
    walker-leaware
    brown
    fifita
    scrafton

    Loose forward

    south
    lentjes
    Evans.
    Frizell.
    Prinsep.
    Hunt.
    mcdowell
    blackadder
    christie
    grace
    harmon
    sanders

    north
    Savea.
    Cane.
    Jacobson.
    Boshier.
    Papalii.
    Sotutu.
    Mikaele tuu.
    Du plessis kirifi.
    A ione.
    gibson

    Halfback

    south
    Christie
    Weber.
    Drummond.
    enari

    north
    Smith.
    Perenara.
    Tahuriorangi.
    Hall.
    booth

    First five
    south
    Mo'unga.
    j ione
    cameron
    smith

    north
    B Barret
    garden-bachop
    trask
    black
    m hunt
    perofeta
    plummer

    Midfield
    south
    Goodhue.
    Thompson.
    nankivell
    ennor

    north
    Lienert-Brown
    Laumape
    R Ione
    faiane
    aso
    b proctor
    p umaga-jensen
    manu
    tupaea

    Outside backs
    south
    J Barrett
    Havili
    Bridge.
    faingaanuku
    jordan
    nareki
    koroi

    north
    Mckenzie.
    Clarke.
    Reece.
    alaimalo
    stevenson
    wainui
    telea
    nanai-seturo
    lowe

    [end of edit]

    They are talking about reviving this fixture. I've had a go at starting 15s on the assumption that first criteria is place of birth, after each island has made their first choice based on this criteria they can replace that choice by a different player based on where they played their first provincial game, without being able to steal a layer already chosen for the other island.

    North

    Tuinukuafe
    Coles
    Tuungafasi
    Whitelock
    Barrett
    Jacobson
    Cane
    Savea
    Smith
    Barrett
    Bridge
    Laumape
    Goodhue
    Reece
    Barrett

    South

    Moody
    Taylor
    Laulala
    Retallick
    Tuipolotu
    Frizell
    Christie
    Evans
    Weber
    Mounga
    Jordan
    Lienert brown
    Thompson
    Havili
    Mckenzie
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020 at 2:47 PM
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  3. Umaga's Witness

    Umaga's Witness First XV

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    Perhaps a better criteria, though not one that suits me trying to imagine the teams, is to which island the player feels greatest allegiance.

    In terms of place of birth, the North Island has 4 times the population of the South, so thats hardly fair, and some degree of equality in teams will surely be nz rugby's goal. In that sense the South Island shouldn't just get leftovers. On the other hand, place of birth is the easiest mechanism to understand which islands culture nurtured the players most.

    From an nzr point of view, if going for a North vs South game that meets the desires of fans and players for the reepresentation to be meaningful, but which suits nzrs objective of getting the best players on the park, they would ideally start with the best 46 players, then see how they can distribute them into the two teams in a way that best fit some sort of representation of the islands. If they couldn't find any way to fill a position in a certain team with one of those players, as none of the candidates met any reasonable eligibility criteria, only then would they look outside the 46. Or perhaps they would look at the best 30, allocate the starting 15s, then move on to the reserves. That would weaken the representativeness of the teams though.

    So I can keep playing this game, I will try using the method of finding the top 46 players, see who is eligible for each team based on them needing one of birth place, high school, University, and first provincial team as criteria. I have listed their eligibility according to each of those criteria, in that order, after their names, below.

    only when we can’t fit the tip 46 into the two teams, will I look for more players, finding the next best in a given position until an eligible player is found.

    LH
    Moody. South, South, South, south
    Tuinukuafe. North, North, n/a, north
    Moli. North, south, north, north
    Johnstone. North, North, n/a, north

    HK
    Coles. North, North, n/a, North
    Taylor. North, north, n/a, south
    Coltman. North, North, south, south
    Aumua. North, North, n/a, north

    TH
    Laulala. N/a, North, n/a, south
    Tuungafasi, n/a, north, n/a, north
    Taavao. North, North, n/a, north
    tokalahi. N/a, north/south, n/a, south

    Lock
    Retallick. South, South, n/a, north
    Whitelock. North, North, South, south
    S barrett. North, North, South, south
    Tuipolotu. South, North, n/a, north
    Romano. South, South, n/a, south
    Fifita. N/a, North, n/a, north

    Loose forward
    Savea. North, North, n/a, north
    Cane. North, North, n/a, north
    Jacobson. North, North, n/a, north
    Boshier. North, North, n/a, north
    Papalii. North, North, n/a, north
    Sotutu. North, North, n/a, north
    Evans. North, North, South, south
    Frizell. N/a, n/a, n/a, south

    So the south still needs two more loose forwards, so I'll keep lisitng the top players until we get there.

    Du plessis kirifi. North, North, n/a, north
    A ione. N/a, North, North, north
    Prinsep. South, South, South, south
    Christie. South, South, n/a, south.

    Got there. Those last two on the list were tough, with Robinson, Grace, karpik, Gibson, hunt, and Douglas all contenders.

    Halfback
    Smith. North, North, n/a, north
    Weber. North, North, South, south
    Perenara. North, North, n/a, north
    Tahuriorangi. North, North, n/a, North
    We still have to keep looking...
    Hall. North, North, n/a, north
    Drummond. South, south, n/a, south

    First five
    B Barret. North, North, n/a, north
    Mo'unga. South, south, south, south

    Midfield
    Lienert-Brown. South, south, n/a, south
    Goodhue. North, North, south, south
    Laumape. North, North, n/a, north
    Thompson. North, North, n/a, south

    Outside backs
    J Barrett. North, North, n/a, south
    Mckenzine. South, South, n/a, north
    Haveili. South, North/South, n/a, South
    Alaimalo. North, south, n/a, North
    Reece. N/a, north, n/a, North
    Bridge. North, North, n/a, South

    Back Reserves
    Ennor. North, North, South, south
    R ione. North, North, North, north
    Milne skudder. North, North, North, north
    Aso. North, North, n/a, north
    Keeping looking...
    J ione. North, North, South, south

    The selection method, when there are multiple players with dual eligibility, is to go from left to right on the eligibility criteria to pick the most applicable island, I.e implicitly assuming birth origin is a greater indicator of which island best represents the player, followed by high school, university, then first province they played for.

    the teams then:

    NORTH
    Tuinukuafe. Johnstone
    Coles. Aumua
    Tuungafasi. Taavao
    Whitelock
    S barett. fifita
    Jacobson
    Cane
    Savea. Boshier
    Smith. Perenara
    B barrett
    Bridge
    Laumape
    Thompson. R ione
    Reece
    J Barrett. Milne skudder

    SOUTH
    Moody. Moli
    Taylor. Coltman
    Laulala. Tokalahi
    Retallick
    tuipolotu. Romano
    Frizell
    Prinsep
    Evans. Christie
    Weber. Drummond
    Mounga. J ione
    Alaimalo. Ennor
    Lienert brown
    Goodhue
    Havili
    Mckenzie

    in terms of coaches, it would be good to split the all blacks coaches, with eligibility required for the island they coach. But we wouldn’t quite have coverage across forwards backs and defence in the south. So I propose bringing in Hansen.

    north coaches
    Foster
    Plumtree
    McLeod

    south coaches
    Mooar
    Feek
    Hansen
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2020
  4. RugbyUSA

    RugbyUSA First XV

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    I've never been to New Zealand, but I hope to make it there someday. I've heard the South Island is more beautiful landscape wise. But when it comes to rugby, I'm guessing the North Island has better players since more people live there. When you have more talent to choose from you usually have a better team, barring the occasional upset.
     
  5. Umaga's Witness

    Umaga's Witness First XV

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    Absolutely, and the birth rate in recent times is much greater in the north island, definitely 20-30 years ago when the current players were born the birth rates were easily 4 times as high in the north compared to the south. When I look at who I picked for the top 46 players, 9 were born in the South Island, 21 in the north, and 6 overseas (interestingly, 3 of these are tight head props). So the South Island look to be doing better than their population would suggest (though I’m sure it’s not statistically significant).

    I would say the South Island is more beautiful, but there are some awesome thermal beauties and lakes in the middle of the north island, rugged rain forests and beautiful beaches on the coromandel peninsula, and some beautiful beaches and warm climate in the far north. Wellington is by far the prettiest city, Auckland isn’t too bad and has loads of Asian restaurants. There is not a single other city or town worth visiting.
     
  6. RugbyUSA

    RugbyUSA First XV

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    Thanks for the player information and the tourist highlights. I'll make it down there someday.
     
  7. Jabby

    Jabby First XV

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    look, im from the south and so have a natural affinity.....but i dont think we can say one is better than the other

    if you keep in mind the far north is a "Sub-Tropical" climate and the far south is "Sub-Antartic"...its just different, i live in Aus now and when ever someone asks what they should do when visiting i say try and drive from top to bottom over a couple of weeks. you'll go through / see

    tropical rain forests
    Volcanic fields
    Thermal pools
    High volcanic plateau
    verdant farmland
    on a ferry
    Island Sounds
    great Mountain ranges
    high country tussock
    glaciers / cirques / perfect glacial valleys
    fjords (like scandenavia)
    windswept sub-antarctic coastlines

    ....its a hell of a drive and that just the scenery

    seriously? you'll recommend Auckland and wellington and nowhere else is worth visiting? most Aucklanders i know dont like Auckland as a city....a soulless CBD and then endless suburbs...if you're looking for good asian restaurants i'd travel through asia ;)
     
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    Last edited: May 31, 2020
  8. Jabby

    Jabby First XV

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    back on topic for a second...north south games are just difficult simply because so many ore players start in the north...so its only at super level it starts to even out...but then you'd just end up with the crusaders + aaron smith playing for the south

    i like the idea of a probables v possibles or even just a two coaches named and they pick teams one at a time
     
  9. RugbyUSA

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    I think a little rivalry is a good thing. We have it here in California as well, the southern part of the state (where I live) vs the northern part of the state (where I went to college). It's all one state, but there's a lot of differences between the north and the south in landscape and attitudes here as well. When I do make it to New Zealand I'm going to visit both islands and see as much as I can while I'm there. When I travel I don't sit around a pool or lay on the beach all day. I get out and about it. :cool:
     
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  10. Umaga's Witness

    Umaga's Witness First XV

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    Main point being the towns and cities are not worth visiting, it’s the nature you want to see. Auckland is ok, it has gotten better, It was more if you can’t handle the constant nature and need to stop somewhere to eat, Auckland isn’t bad. Wellington is the only town or city worth visiting really, and probably most are worth actively avoiding. I have just had to give advice to people before and they are quite resistant to me telling them not to bother going to towns/cities. They’re like “where should I go”, and I’m like “there’s this really cool mountain”, they look at me Funny and say “a mountain?”, I say “yeah, it’s like a really big lump of dirt”, they’re like “does that mean I’ll get dirty?”, I’m like “yeah but it’s really beautiful”, they’re like “oh ok, so there’s some cool buildings?”, I’m like “it’s a mountain”, they’re like “what’s the food like?”, I’m like “just go to Auckland”.

    and back to topic, looking at who plays for which super rugby team is fairly meaningless, as players just go wherever, It’s not really a regional thing at all. The interest in a north south game would have to come from some regional representation. And yeah maybe there are better options than north vs south but mark robinson has said quite recently (this month some time) that a north South game is very likely to happen.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
  11. Jabby

    Jabby First XV

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    actively avoiding? thats just weird, there are lots of nice little towns filled with lovely people

    chch - antartic centre, gondola, earthquake memorial
    rotatua - thermal hotsprings
    queenstown - skiing, earnslaw up the lake, jetboats
    Dunedin - speights brewery, rugby at the Fo Bar stadium
    tekapo - just a beautiful little spot

    thats just off the top of my head

    what kind of bad experiences have you had in NZ cities?
     
  12. Umaga's Witness

    Umaga's Witness First XV

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    I actively dislike Queenstown, but would recommend going to the area and averting your view from the town. The mountains and lakes and activities are nice, but you aren’t really going for the town, the town itself just reeks of rich excess and greed.

    tekapo has a bit of that too, but mostly has a different feel. But is a nice town, I’ll give you that one. Dunedin, haha, good one. It’s not horrible, but I wouldn’t make a deliberate trip out of it. Speights, no, haha.

    Rotorua, no it’s a crummy place, the surrounding areas are very good but the town itself, no way.

    Christchurch was okish prior to the earthquakes.

    I would actively avoid pretty much all towns that you don’t have to pass through on your way to other sites. They’re either a bit grotty or they go the other way like Taupo or Queenstown, and tend not to have many city/town activities of any significance.

    actually I kinda like Picton, except one of the people was a bit bigoted
     
  13. Jabby

    Jabby First XV

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    you have to admit this all says more about you than anything, you are by far in the minority with lots of those opinions, just a bit sad really you can dislike so mush, i cant remember when i would ever have listed so many things i actively dislike
     
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  14. Umaga's Witness

    Umaga's Witness First XV

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    Come on Dude, I might be a bit sad, but honestly Dunedin is ok, don’t get too upset. It’s not really a big list of things I dislike? Greed and grottyness, and speights, and bigots. If you ask me it’s more sad if you don’t dislike bigots and greed. And if you ask anybody in the world that isn’t from the Deep South of New Zealand, speights is crap. Grottyness? You were asking why I would recommend actively avoiding towns, it’s more about the opportunity cost.

    I’m not in the minority at all. people I know who have toured New Zealand don’t like the majority of towns here, they’re a bit of a downer really. So when you have two routes available it’s better to take the one that doesn’t go through the towns. and they don’t quite get the idea that these are small towns with absolutely nothing to do, not destinations inofthemselves.

    It’s not like in your highlights tour you listed any towns, at all. It was a pretty good summary really.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
  15. Jabby

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    because i was specifically talking about the huge range of climates from one end to the other
     
  16. RugbyUSA

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    Oops! I didn't mean to start a civil war between the north and the south...islands. ;)
     
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  17. Jabby

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    its not that, i love both islands, love how different they are
     
  18. RugbyUSA

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    I was just kidding about starting a civil war. New Zealand is at the top of my bucket list, for sure!
     
  19. OneBlackEye

    OneBlackEye Academy Player

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    https://www.allblacks.com/news/foster-reveals-north-v-south-eligibility/

    “We think the best legacy thing for us to do is to pick players on the first province they played for because the choice they made when they played first class rugby for that province was probably the start of their move into the professional game. So we think that’s the best criteria,” Foster said.

    Now we know.
     
  20. OneBlackEye

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    Also, as a Huntly lad, if you're not sending tourists to see the power station you're doing New Zealand a huge disservice.
     
  21. Umaga's Witness

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    Agh, really don’t like that. Criteria that represents the different cultures would have been better, giving it some meaning. The first province you played for just represents where work opportunities are.
     
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