[November Tests 2016 EOYT] Ireland vs. New Zealand (05/11/2016)

[Leonormous Boozer]

We got the better of them for 60 odd minutes. Not outplayed completely, far from it. To think otherwise is incredibly one-eyed.

Even look at the number of clear line breaks they made, up the middle and out wide, versus ours. Look at the questions they asked of our defense every time they had the ball versus our very lateral game which successfully worked the fringes a couple of times.

Yeah, we won. Great credit to all involved. But we are a very long way from being on an equal footing. Don't delude yourself otherwise!

We're a lot closer than we were on Saturday morning. There's huge potential for improvement for us too, that was more than our usual passionate win v SA, Aus or a good England side where we are hanging on for dear life, we scored the last try and should have had another three pointer but for Carbery missing a sitter, NZ didn't come up short in this one they were killed off. In two weeks we have more backrow options, a capped Ringrose to come off the bench or even start if he can run a D nearly as good as Payne, an even more confident Carbery or potentially Jackson off the bench and Iain Henderson has a chance to come back too. In front of one of the mkst fearsome home crowds you'll likely ever see and two weeks rather than two days to prepare. Expect a more nuanced and equally intense performance, expect to be in the game throughout.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Also you consider the general insular nature of US market when it comes to sports and the fact that only a third of Americans have a passport and don't travel outside their own country

That's quite a biased way to look at it. NYC is further away from LA than London is from Beirut. They travel less abroad partly because they've got quite a lot to see inside their own borders. From the highest mountain in the world to Auroras to a mountain Range larger than most European countries.
Compare it to how many Europeans travel just within a 2000km radius and i'm sure you'll get a fairer like-4-like comparison.

 

[die_mole]

Well, it's not unjustified. I have been there a number of time including to watch sport and it's just my general impression (hence why I am asking for numbers to back up that there is a growing interest and real market potential for growth for the 15s version of the sport). Also you consider the general insular nature of US market when it comes to sports and the fact that only a third of Americans have a passport and 2/3rds don't travel outside their own country and are pretty clueless of what is going on outside their own country. It's going to take a whole lot more than just "exposure" of one match to make the 15 man rugby union game appeal to the mass market in the US and not just a Niche sport. It's going to have really show a point of difference to the NFL and how it is more safe and prosper at school level, as well as appealing to the broad different social groups in the US (Whites/Hispanics/Afro Carribean/Asian etc). As well as the rules involved, which are not exactly simple (especially the breakdown). The 7s game will have a better chance IMO due to its simplicity.

I am sure ABs have their fan club in the US, but I am not convinced that this is big enough (unless you have specific numbers) to convince me that the ABs going their each year to play one game really "exposes" the game to the masses in the US.

Rugby needs to sell the fact the game only takes a little under 2 hours compared to the 4 hours to watch football. You eatch an nfl game and your sunday is gone. Also the fact that its insanely cheap to play compared to gridiron.

I dont think the all blacks expose the game in the us, chicago rugby weekend is kind of a destination vacation for the rugby community. You are only going if you already like rugby.

I think rugby needs to copy soccer to an extent. Prioritize the pro league so people can have a local team to support while continiuing to send our best players overseas. Try to bring international tests and club friendlies over here so that people can go see some of the best prodxut in the world. Ignore the 2/3 of people without passports and focus on thoxe who are aware of "not-america."

 

[Bada-Bing!]

That's quite a biased way to look at it. NYC is further away from LA than London is from Beirut. They travel less abroad partly because they've got quite a lot to see inside their own borders. From the highest mountain in the world to Auroras to a mountain Range larger than most European countries.
Compare it to how many Europeans travel just within a 2000km radius and i'm sure you'll get a fairer like-4-like comparison.

You've taken my comment out of context of why it is difficult for 15 man rugby union to penetrate the Mass American market. This is only to illustrate that for the vast majority of Americans they don't have a great deal of interest of what happens outside their own borders.

 

[Makos]

Well, it's not unjustified. I have been there a number of time including to watch sport and it's just my general impression (hence why I am asking for numbers to back up that there is a growing interest and real market potential for growth for the 15s version of the sport). Also you consider the general insular nature of US market when it comes to sports and the fact that only a third of Americans have a passport and 2/3rds don't travel outside their own country and are pretty clueless of what is going on outside their own country. It's going to take a whole lot more than just "exposure" of one match to make the 15 man rugby union game appeal to the mass market in the US and not just a Niche sport. It's going to have really show a point of difference to the NFL and how it is more safe and prosper at school level, as well as appealing to the broad different social groups in the US (Whites/Hispanics/Afro Carribean/Asian etc). As well as the rules involved, which are not exactly simple (especially the breakdown). The 7s game will have a better chance IMO due to its simplicity.

I am sure ABs have their fan club in the US, but I am not convinced that this is big enough (unless you have specific numbers) to convince me that the ABs going their each year to play one game really "exposes" the game to the masses in the US.

I'm from a country of only 4.5m only 2.8m when I was born, that's smaller than some of America's largest cities. For us to be getting exposure in America is fantastic and to build a formidable reputation that is only positive for our commercial success. We're not like England who has massive infrastructure in our sports, we're still very young and amateur. So growing the All Black brand is paramount for us to help the NZRU economically retain our players.

The Haka has seen huge success and popularity in America. Numerous "stars" openly use social media to express their support for some of our players and the team as another example. The All Blacks are no doubt helping generate popularity of rugby in America, I'm not quite sure why you have a hard time accepting that.

The on-going fixtures in Chicago are going to continue to generate appeal, it will become a thing, well known and more people will begin to watch rugby and become more interested in it. It's not going to happen overnight, but even if you tap into a small portion of the American market, you already have numbers rivaling that of smaller populated countries, like most of the rugby nations currently have.

- - - Updated - - -

This was a really good article on the growing popularity of Rugby in the US.

http://www.nzedge.com/news/rugbys-rising-us-popularity-helped-blacks/

Rugby's Rising US Popularity Helped by All Blacks
The match between the All Blacks and USA Eagles marked the largest-ever audience for an international rugby contest on American soil; signaling the sport's growing U.S. popularity.

"People do really like watching rugby in America," said Nigel Melville, chief executive officer of USA Rugby. "They just don't see enough of it."

 

[die_mole]

I'm from a country of only 4.5m only 2.8m when I was born, that's smaller than some of America's largest cities. For us to be getting exposure in America is fantastic and to build a formidable reputation that is only positive for our commercial success. We're not like England who has massive infrastructure in our sports, we're still very young and amateur. So growing the All Black brand is paramount for us to help the NZRU economically retain our players.

The Haka has seen huge success and popularity in America. Numerous "stars" openly use social media to express their support for some of our players and the team as another example. The All Blacks are no doubt helping generate popularity of rugby in America, I'm not quite sure why you have a hard time accepting that.

The on-going fixtures in Chicago are going to continue to generate appeal, it will become a thing, well known and more people will begin to watch rugby and become more interested in it. It's not going to happen overnight, but even if you tap into a small portion of the American market, you already have numbers rivaling that of smaller populated countries, like most of the rugby nations currently have.

- - - Updated - - -

This was a really good article on the growing popularity of Rugby in the US.

http://www.nzedge.com/news/rugbys-rising-us-popularity-helped-blacks/

You do realize that people who like the haka dont actually go and watch rugby games, they just watch youtube videos of it.

- - - Updated - - -

That's quite a biased way to look at it. NYC is further away from LA than London is from Beirut. They travel less abroad partly because they've got quite a lot to see inside their own borders. From the highest mountain in the world to Auroras to a mountain Range larger than most European countries.
Compare it to how many Europeans travel just within a 2000km radius and i'm sure you'll get a fairer like-4-like comparison.

Doesnt that just show that americans have less of a reason to be aware of international sports and news. Foreign nations are so far removed from us compared to european countries.

 

[Makos]

You do realize that people who like the haka dont actually go and watch rugby games, they just watch youtube videos of it.

Does it matter where they watch it? It's still exposure and popularity.

Rugby, which will join the Olympics in Rio de Janeiro in 2016, has been the fastest-growing U.S. team sport in the last five years, according to the Sports and Fitness Industry Association.

TV ratings are also climbing; the average viewership for two USA Rugby telecasts on NBC this year rose 14 percent compared with 2013, according to the network.

The numbers speak for themselves, there's certainly market potential in America, I wish Blindside would stop bringing up NFL and their mainstreams sports etc, which I already said it would never compete vs them.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I'm from a country of only 4.5m only 2.8m when I was born, that's smaller than some of America's largest cities. For us to be getting exposure in America is fantastic and to build a formidable reputation that is only positive for our commercial success. We're not like England who has massive infrastructure in our sports, we're still very young and amateur. So growing the All Black brand is paramount for us to help the NZRU economically retain our players.

The Haka has seen huge success and popularity in America. Numerous "stars" openly use social media to express their support for some of our players and the team as another example. The All Blacks are no doubt helping generate popularity of rugby in America, I'm not quite sure why you have a hard time accepting that.

The on-going fixtures in Chicago are going to continue to generate appeal, it will become a thing, well known and more people will begin to watch rugby and become more interested in it. It's not going to happen overnight, but even if you tap into a small portion of the American market, you already have numbers rivaling that of smaller populated countries, like most of the rugby nations currently have.

Well maybe we are talking about two different scales here. I'm talking on the Macro level; you are talking on the micro level. On the macro level, 15 man rugby union has a long way to go to appeal to the masses on any significant level. From a micro level and small niche of course rugby will appeal to sections of the American sporting public who like their collision sports and want something different to NFL, if appealing to a few million is satisfactory target for NZRU to grow the AB brand out there, then so be it. I think World Rugby will have their eye the bigger picture - figures in terms of participation, attendances, viewing figures before deciding whether the US is a viable choice to hold a RWC there in the future.

 

[Makos]

Well maybe we are talking about two different scales here. I'm talking on the Macro level; you are talking on the micro level. On the macro level, 15 man rugby union has a long way to go to appeal to the masses on any significant level. From a micro level and small niche of course rugby will appeal to sections of the American sporting public who like their collision sports and want something different to NFL, if appealing to a few million is satisfactory target for NZRU to grow the AB brand out there, then so be it. I think World Rugby will have their eye the bigger picture - figures in terms of participation, attendances, viewing figures before deciding whether the US is a viable choice to hold a RWC there in the future.

But 15 man Rugby union is the fastest growing team sport in America in the last 5 years currently.

Rugby, which will join the Olympics in Rio de Janeiro in 2016, has been the fastest-growing U.S. team sport in the last five years, according to the Sports and Fitness Industry Association.

Not only that, viewership is very large as well.

The match between the All Blacks and USA Eagles marked the largest-ever audience for an international rugby contest on American soil; signaling the sport's growing U.S. popularity.

"People do really like watching rugby in America," said Nigel Melville, chief executive officer of USA Rugby. "They just don't see enough of it."

TV ratings are also climbing; the average viewership for two USA Rugby telecasts on NBC this year rose 14 percent compared with 2013, according to the network

This sounds great to me and that's coming from their Chief Executive Officer.

Maybe there isn't market potential for England RU in America, because they're simply not popular or known, but certainly for the All Black brand and for someone like Ireland who have a lot of roots in Chicago.

The numbers for me are extremely positive and suggesting that it's only a good thing these matches are repeated and the expansion of the game in America can only lead to further market success and revenue.

With all that it will grow from a micro-level to maybe one day a marco level. As I said, it's not an overnight process, but give it time.

 

[Peat]

A few million interested still makes the US one of the biggest rugby markets in the world. I really don't get why you're so fixated on whether you can bring all of the US on board when most of rugby's markets are teeny-tiny. You don't need to make a huge splash for it there to become one of the game's biggest markets.

 

[die_mole]

Does it matter where they watch it? It's still exposure and popularity.
I
The numbers speak for themselves, there's certainly market potential in America, I wish Blindside would stop bringing up NFL and their mainstreams sports etc, which I already said it would never compete vs them.

They don't watch the games, they watch just a two minute video of the haka.

Lacrosse was our fastest growing support before that so that ***le means nothing. Cause of math, it's easier to grow when your base number is small.

Would you expect the ceo of usa rugby to say anything other than positive things about rugby here?

 

[Makos]

A few million interested still makes the US one of the biggest rugby markets in the world. I really don't get why you're so fixated on whether you can bring all of the US on board when most of rugby's markets are teeny-tiny. You don't need to make a huge splash for it there to become one of the game's biggest markets.

Exactly.

Surprised at the pessimism towards the America market here, especially from the American user.

"US professional rugby union league to launch next year as nation embraces 'fastest growing team sport' North America's first ever professional rugby union league is set to begin in the US in April 2016."

20 years ago, I would not have predicted this in America at all.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

But 15 man Rugby union is the fastest growing team sport in America in the last 5 years currently.



Not only that, viewership is very large as well.





This sounds great to me and that's coming from their Chief Executive Officer.

Maybe there isn't market potential for England RU in America, because they're simply not popular or known, but certainly for the All Black brand and for someone like Ireland who have a lot of roots in Chicago.

The numbers for me are extremely positive and suggesting that it's only a good thing these matches are repeated and the expansion of the game in America can only lead to further market success and revenue.

With all that it will grow from a micro-level to maybe one day a marco level. As I said, it's not an overnight process, but give it time.

To be honest - fastest growing in the last 5 years means nothing to me. I.e. in year 1 viewership was 100k, then in year to 2 it was 200k, then year 3 400k and - so in those years it's increased 100% year on year (between year 1-3) relative to another new sport which has grown 30-40% compared to the previous year and so on.

I am being realistic when I say Rugby in the US will have a finite niche market because it is in such a competitive sports market - if you don't like me talking about the big 3 sports what about NHL, Soccer, Golf, motor sports, WWE and E-sports? The ABs can only do so much in that market and I think you're being a little naïve to think otherwise.

 

[Makos]

To be honest - fastest growing in the last 5 years means nothing to me. I.e. in year 1 viewership was 100k, then in year to 2 it was 200k, then year 3 400k and - so in those years it's increased 100% year on year (between year 1-3) relative to another new sport which has grown 30-40% compared to the previous year and so on.

I am being realistic when I say Rugby in the US will have a finite niche market because it is in such a competitive sports market - if you don't like me talking about the big 3 sports what about NHL, Soccer, Golf, motor sports, WWE and E-sports? The ABs can only do so much in that market and I think you're being a little naïve to think otherwise.

In other words hard facts mean nothing to you?

Dismissing clear evidence of the sports growing popularity and growing market potential means nothing to you?

I guess this discussion is truly over then.

 

[die_mole]

Growing is a misleading fact.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

In other words hard facts mean nothing to you?

Dismissing clear evidence of the sports growing popularity and growing market potential means nothing to you?

I guess this discussion is truly over then.

No, I just want actual figures and not "this is the fastest growing sport in the last 5 years" in the US. Fastest growing is just all relative as I explained.

Anyway, save it for another thread. I am sure the AB brand will survive one loss.

 

[Makos]

Growing is a misleading fact.

I seem to be working of at least some statistics and information and you two working of opinions.

No, I just want actual figures and not "this is the fastest growing sport in the last 5 years" in the US. Fastest growing is just all relative as I explained.

Anyway, save it for another thread. I am sure the AB brand will survive one loss.

This is the correct thread anyway.

 

[Peat]

The statistics can be massaged though and you can be sure the people at US rugby are doing so.

I don't think its practical to think of rugby as being anything other than a niche in the US.

I also don't think rugby needs to be anything other than a niche for it to be very valuable to the rugby world in general. I mean, point in case, NZ are already coining it there anyway.

 

[AzaMatt]

i think they did a great job with the coverage of this game. i wouldnt even mind if the ref mic was audable in the stadium for the games in the US. would make it more appealing to newcomers to rugby games so they know what the penalties were for etc. we have the screens at our games here with graphics but they might like it more with the ref mic, similar to NFL (do they still do this?). rugby can be complicated to explain to people who dont watch rugby here, yet alone in a country where it is not a (fairly) major sport

 

[Makos]

The statistics can be massaged though and you can be sure the people at US rugby are doing so.

I don't think its practical to think of rugby as being anything other than a niche in the US.

I also don't think rugby needs to be anything other than a niche for it to be very valuable to the rugby world in general. I mean, point in case, NZ are already coining it there anyway.

The London Irish and The Saracens also play in a America at some stage.

It could lead to further TV deals as well for the Aviva, Super Rugby, Top 14.