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[November Tests 2016 EOYT] Ireland vs. New Zealand (05/11/2016)

themole25

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Surely the fact America has nearly the same amount of registered players as NZ can't be overlooked as a market option.

America has a far larger ceiling than NZ due to population as well.

Anyhow I hope we continue these test matches in America, they're fun and it's great hearing from Americans about the game. Some of the tweets during the All Blacks vs USA Eagles was particular entertaining the other year.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/us-public-react-hilariously-to-nuts-and-intense-all-blacks-rugby-test/news-story/67b8010dff9b0796da83d30700beea95
you have to take into account where most of these players are coming from

According to USA Rugby there are 112,000 registered rugby players int the United States

32,000 of them play in college, a majority of them (me included) did not play rugby prior to college and it is viewed as a way to keep playing a sport and drink a lot
Saying that 40% of these are actual fans of rugby would me a stretch in my imagination

The rest of of them are in high school or at adult clubs... adults who are into rugby for the same reasons as college students
the high school students have hope but from what coaches have told me (i refereee) the kids care more about playing soccer or football in college

i honestly don't see how that 1.2 million number is credible, there would have to be 9x as many people playing outlaw rugby rather than sanctioned rugby
 

The_Blindside

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I haven't personally, but your compatriot has, so good luck in response to his comment 'buddy'.

By your attitude America isn't even worth mentioning rugby to.

Which I simply don't agree with.
Then I suggest you take a trip at some point. Seriously; it'll open your eyes to what it's really like and maybe then you'll get some insight into what the America is like and what I am talking about. It's a fantastic place to go on holiday and eat, but personally I wouldn't want to live there.
 
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Makos

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you have to take into account where most of these players are coming from

According to USA Rugby there are 112,000 registered rugby players int the United States

32,000 of them play in college, a majority of them (me included) did not play rugby prior to college and it is viewed as a way to keep playing a sport and drink a lot
Saying that 40% of these are actual fans of rugby would me a stretch in my imagination
I'd find it quite odd the notion of playing a sport and yet not being a fan of it? I'm not sure I buy that.

So what's your verdict on American rugby and it's future?

Surely the introduction of a Pro league is some progress.
 

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Well I am glad you have been going through my posting history so thoroughly Peat. Until I see some real evidence of the 15 man rugby game really taking off in the US I remain a cynic that it'll be anything but a niche sport there.
... or I've been reading what you've said in the thread.

I still remain utterly confused as to your dismissal of there being any value to rugby being a niche sport in the US.
 

themole25

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America is a weird place, no adult plays gridiron but it is our most popular sport... also most people aren't introduced to rugby til college and at that point which sports they watch on tv and which teams they support has been solidified

pro league is a great step but we still need to send our international players overseas to play better competition
i really like that it pulls the best players and premier competitions from the clubs... club culture is very strong here and people would rather go watch their former club play than watch a division 1 men's match

the sport needs to be pushed more into high schools for our playing level to rise

rugby is strong in the states in regards to guys getting onto the pitch and having a good drink up afterwards... the problem is converting participation into fandom

once we get high schools more involved it will be viewed less as a social sport and gain legitimacy

some colleges have made the sport varsity which is good but i would like to see u23 teams formed by clubs in major cities (they are a hurdle in some sorts but we need them) or for a professional league to be formed just out of u23 guys

continue to bring top level games to the United States because we want to see the best, not what is convenient

basically we need rugby to transition from something guys do on saturday into something where people are aware of what is going on in the world game and a system where we can develop talent rather than hope it falls into our laps
 

The_Blindside

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... or I've been reading what you've said in the thread.

I still remain utterly confused as to your dismissal of there being any value to rugby being a niche sport in the US.
Look there is nothing wrong with rugby finding a niche in the US market and of course there is value to it. But when we have World Rugby talking about it being a potential host for the World Cup and recouping their $100 million plus fee from staging the event, I think we have to look at the bigger picture of where rugby is in the US before this can be considered. I think there has to be real evidence of homegrown interest and American fans attending the matches and not just rely on hoardes of British, Irish, French, South Africans, NZers, Australians, Argentinians flying over there to make up numbers.
 

Makos

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Look there is nothing wrong with rugby finding a niche in the US market and of course there is value to it. But when we have World Rugby talking about it being a potential host for the World Cup and recouping their $100 million plus fee from staging the event, I think we have to look at the bigger picture of where rugby is in the US before this can be considered. I think there has to be real evidence of homegrown interest and American fans attending the matches and not just rely on hoardes of British, Irish, French, South Africans, NZers, Australians, Argentinians flying over there to make up numbers.
I'd absolutely love the RWC to be hosted by a America, I think they would do a fantastic job and it would be huge for the sport. FIFA did the same with football in America and it helped the sports profile massively there.

The attendances for the games the All Blacks have played are already a good indicator of the audiences that will attend. Maybe not for the minor games, like Romania vs Tonga, but certainly for the bigger fixtures they would have no problem selling tickets in the bigger cities of the America.

If they allocate the games sensibly as well by using demographics of rugby popularity they could even help the smaller fixtures get more attendance.
 
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themole25

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I'd absolutely love the RWC to be hosted by a America, I think they would do a fantastic job and it would be huge for the sport. FIFA did the same with football in America and it helped the sports profile massively there.

The attendances for the games the All Blacks have played are already a good indicator of the audiences that will attend. Maybe not for the minor games, like Romania vs Tonga, but certainly for the bigger fixtures they would have no problem selling tickets in the bigger cities of the America.

If they allocate the games sensibly as well by using demographics of rugby popularity they could even help the smaller fixtures get more attendance.
World Rugby would have to agree to a spring World Cup which I think is the only real issue

we have the stadia and we have enough people to fill the seats
 

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Congrats to Ireland on this result, very clinical first half, 2013 déjà vu for a while there in second half, then experienced heads shut out the last 10.

As an NZ fan - I didn't enjoy NZs first half performance, but I enjoyed the momentum of the swinging match. Fittingly dramatic way to finally break that duck they've come close to several times in the last decade.
 

The_Blindside

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I'd absolutely love the RWC to be hosted by a America, I think they would do a fantastic job and it would be huge for the sport. FIFA did the same with football in America and it helped the sports profile massively there.

The attendances for the games the All Blacks have played are already a good indicator of the audiences that will attend. Maybe not for the minor games, like Romania vs Tonga, but certainly for the bigger fixtures they would have no problem selling tickets in the bigger cities of the America.

If they allocate the games sensibly as well by using demographics of rugby popularity they could even help the smaller fixtures get more attendance.
Well, that remains to be seen. 1 game per year which was sold out is different from the countless games that would be staged in a RWC back to back, sometimes 3 games in a week and then the knockout stages once the US Eagles go out at the pool stage (if they don't do a Euro 2016 and let 3rd place teams go through). At least when England went out in the last one English fans still attended matches in the RWC 2015, but started to drift away once the semis/final happened. But I went to the final and know there was no way I would have got a ticket had England or any of the other home nations reached it. The attendance for the final according to Wiki was 80,125, compared to the full capacity of 82,000. I dread to think what would happen if and when the US Eagles got knocked out early in their own RWC. Would American fans really turn up to support other teams in a sport where they have little tradition? I am not so sure.
 

themole25

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Well, that remains to be seen. 1 game per year which was sold out is different from the countless games that would be staged in a RWC back to back, sometimes 3 games in a week and then the knockout stages once the US Eagles go out at the pool stage (if they don't do a Euro 2016 and let 3rd place teams go through). At least when England went out in the last one English fans still attended matches in the RWC 2015, but started to drift away once the semis/final happened. But I went to the final and know there was no way I would have got a ticket had England or any of the other home nations reached it. The attendance for the final according to Wiki was 80,125, compared to the full capacity of 82,000. I dread to think what would happen if and when the US Eagles got knocked out early in their own RWC. Would American fans really turn up to support other teams in a sport where they have little tradition? I am not so sure.
guarantee you that Eagles matches will not be the highest attended games
 

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Which doesn't really inspire much confidence.
I wouldn't under-estimate American's love for sports. Especially grandeur sporting events. I think a RWC in USA in the next 12-20 years time is a great idea.

With continued exposure over the next 10 years like big test matches and steady growth domestically in player numbers and their own Pro League.

The FIFA 94 World Cup had similar critics and fears, but that turned out to be one of the best world cups ever.

America has great infrastructure and with good marketing and build up I think the event would be massive there.
 

Tigs Man

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As long as it is properly marketed the RWC should have no problem getting bums on seats IMO.
 

The_Blindside

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I wouldn't under-estimate American's love for sports. Especially grandeur sporting events. I think a RWC in USA in the next 12-20 years time is a great idea.

With continued exposure over the next 10 years like big test matches and steady growth domestically in player numbers and their own Pro League.

The FIFA 94 World Cup had similar critics and fears, but that turned out to be one of the best world cups ever.

America has great infrastructure and with good marketing and build up I think the event would be massive there.
I am not denying US's love of sport; just querying how much room there is for 15 man rugby union game there. And soccer is different. It has had it's own troubled history in the US (look how long it has taken from the failed pro league back in the 1970s). And now it has MLS, but still not sure how popular it is. US fans still don't fully get soccer IMO - see their "I believe...." chant in the last World Cup. It was cringeworthy.

For me USA 1994 was one of worst in living memory. Not only England not qualifying for it, but matches were on at bad times for Europe. Also one of the worst finals in living memory, probably second to the one in Italia 1990.

For Rugby - The US Pro League only started this year with 5 teams. Let see how that takes off first and gauge interest and attendance from there before we start talking about the RWC being staged there. Even before we get there we have to see how Japan goes and at least they have a Pro league there that has been established there for a while.
 

themole25

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I am not denying US's love of sport; just querying how much room there is for 15 man rugby union game there. And soccer is different. It has had it's own troubled history in the US (look how long it has taken from the failed pro league back in the 1970s). And now it has MLS, but still not sure how popular it is. US fans still don't fully get soccer IMO - see their "I believe...." chant in the last World Cup. It was cringeworthy.

For me USA 1994 was one of worst in living memory. Not only England not qualifying for it, but matches were on at bad times for Europe. Also one of the worst finals in living memory, probably second to the one in Italia 1990.

For Rugby - The US Pro League only started this year with 5 teams. Let see how that takes off first and gauge interest and attendance from there before we start talking about the RWC being staged there. Even before we get there we have to see how Japan goes and at least they have a Pro league there that has been established there for a while.
MLS didn't begin play until 1996 and the NASL was 10 years removed at that point

an RWC in teh United States would be as least 11 years after the formation of the pro league

I'm sorry that a US world cup would be inconvenient for you but you are not the only rugby fan in the world and I don't think it is going to affect WR's decision making

and we might not get soccer, but last time our two countries were in a group at a WC we came out on top
 

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I am not denying US's love of sport; just querying how much room there is for 15 man rugby union game there. And soccer is different. It has had it's own troubled history in the US (look how long it has taken from the failed pro league back in the 1970s). And now it has MLS, but still not sure how popular it is. US fans still don't fully get soccer IMO - see their "I believe...." chant in the last World Cup. It was cringeworthy.

For me USA 1994 was one of worst in living memory. Not only England not qualifying for it, but matches were on at bad times for Europe. Also one of the worst finals in living memory, probably second to the one in Italia 1990.

For Rugby - The US Pro League only started this year with 5 teams. Let see how that takes off first and gauge interest and attendance from there before we start talking about the RWC being staged there. Even before we get there we have to see how Japan goes and at least they have a Pro league there that has been established there for a while.
But the USA 94 World Cup broke attendance records that still exist today.

"Despite the host nation's lack of a national top-level soccer league, the tournament broke the World Cup average attendance record with nearly 69,000 spectators per game, a mark that still stands today."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_FIFA_World_Cup

Not bad for a struggling sport.

The RWC would be a hit there. American's when they watch rugby all love it.

Onwards and upwards I say.
 

The Alpha Bro

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1994 is remembered as possibly the best World Cup over here despite Italia 90 being our first appearence and us going one round later. Obvious bias but Ireland's win in Giants Stadium over Italy is as big a deal as Saturday's win in our sporting history. I think the US would stage a great RWC, I'd 100% be there too.
 

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MLS didn't begin play until 1996 and the NASL was 10 years removed at that point

an RWC in teh United States would be as least 11 years after the formation of the pro league

I'm sorry that a US world cup would be inconvenient for you but you are not the only rugby fan in the world and I don't think it is going to affect WR's decision making

and we might not get soccer, but last time our two countries were in a group at a WC we came out on top
Oh don't get me wrong. England are embarrassing at football and it won't improve any time soon. Hey we lost to Iceland at the Euros:). That was more embarrasing than US topping the group over England at WC 2010.

I didn't enjoy WC 1994. Just not good memories of it for the reasons stated above.

USA would be good hosts of a sporting event like the RWC. Just not convinced that the local public would get behind a a RWC and fill in the gaps which the tourists don't fill.

And you're right WR will just think about filling their coffers and recovering their staging fee/making a profit.
 

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Guys look at NFL in England which possibly the most sports mad nation on this planet it's spent a collosall amount of effort penetrating the market. There are tons of casual fans like myself. However despite all that and now playing 3 games a season here it a curiosity I know a whole bunch of people who went to the Bengals games. Only one was really a fan of American Football the rest went because they wanted to experience a match to see what it was like.

That's after nearly 10 years and whilst participation is up amongst adults that want to try it out its still a long haul and possibly in another 10 we'll be able to support a franchise.

Nothing I've seen suggest the great golden goose of America is in better shape about rugby. Targets have to be incredibly in the long term and it won't magically change happen.
 
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