[November Tests 2016 EOYT] Ireland vs. New Zealand (19/11/2016)

[The Jones Boy]

This thread has dissolved into a great example of why I don't really post here anymore. I'm not going to weigh in on any of the issues but for the love of God could people stop going on about the commentary? During a great game everyone was going on about the commentary and the post game has had loads of potshots at it. Alan Quinlan is famous for being as big a homer as anyone in rugby not named Frankie Sheahan. He was also commentating for the British company Sky most Irish people were watching on RTE the fully Irish broadcast. Unfortunately I'm out of the country and my stream had the Sky commentary.

It's such an inane thing to give out about it is just background noise. It has absolutely no bearing on anything like the citings and especially on the ref so why does it keep getting brought up? It was bad no doubt but as a general rule most sports commentary isn't great and is aimed towards a demographic. Whatever about real issues which impact the game I don't get the constant going on about the commentary.

I don't get the constant going on about any of it.
It's over, its done.
Ban Fekitoa for ten years. Then we don't have to punt him when SBW comes back because he's already gone.
Ban Cane for 5 years. Ardie Savea will be a happy incumbent.
Give Steve Hansen a voice over on Irish television like they gave Gerry Adams for many years on British television and make his voice Frankie Boyle's so we can all have a giggle at the non smiling one making people laugh.
Ban anyone who boo kickers during their shot from ticket paying grounds.
Ban Tiddlywinks.
Most of all, Ban Kiwi.

 

[nzlizard]

So after reflecting on the game.

Man the Irish have 2 amazing flankers, would be happy to have them start for us so much work and so many turnovers. They just killed us at the breakdown with so much intensity, I remember when we used to do that.

Aaron Smith needs to not start anymore, TJP has it all over him.

Our backline just doesn't feel right, something is not clicking and while I can agree Barrett is an attacking machine and better than Cruden at an individual level I feel the backline as a whole functions better when Cruden is present, maybe it has been the centre pairings as well, we haven't really settled on a combo for various reasons but it is starting to show a bit and it needs addressing, we also need to get the back 3 sorted and play them into form, this swapping doesn't help, bring back NMS.

Moody and Franks are walking penalties.

Our discipline on field has to get better, to many stupid infringements when we don't need to, while I feel the ref was very inconsistent I feel we were the architects of our own demise with the penalty count.

Retallick is amazing and shows how much we missed him in the first Ireland game.

Ireland had all that possession and they couldn't score, our defense was amazing.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Because their actions TOWARDS the game, has enabled a country. If they don't keep going on and on about aspects of the game that took place, nothing would have happened.

I doubt many Irish watched that commentary, we have our own broadcaster showing the game with commentary from Ryle Nugent and (probably) Tony Ward. I watched the game with French commentary for example so no one has 'enabled' me.

What's happened here is that NZ fans can't take any criticism of their players, it happens all the time. Look back through the thread and both Corny and I, with whom you've been arguing have said Sexton deserved a yellow card, NZ fans have flat out refused to accept that Sam Cane's shoulder was the first thing to make contact with Henshaw's head even when provided clear proof and continued to argue that its all okay because Henshaw pirouetted into the tackle when we all know the laws don't work like that.

Isolating the reaction of the game to this forum, I don't read fan reactions elsewhere, the arguments laid down by the Irish posters have been more objective and less emotional. Critiquing a referees performance does not equal sour grapes, stating that we think players should be cited and suspended does not mean we are bitter, we've accepted a fair result and looked at where we and rugby's officials need to improve, hardly an unfair reaction to a test match.

 

[Makos]

NZ fans have flat out refused to accept that Sam Cane's shoulder was the first thing to make contact with Henshaw's head even when provided clear proof and continued to argue that its all okay because Henshaw pirouetted into the tackle when we all know the laws don't work like that.

I'd just like to call into question the integrity of that gif you posted. I have looked all over the internet for the source footage. The other angles that were displayed live to me and uploaded on youtube don't make it as clear. If you could find me the source of that gif, or an uploaded longer length video, I'd feel more comfortable about it's origin and authenticity.



The comments from the TMO asked by the ref were "Is he trying to wrap?", which was answered "Yes, he's trying to wrap."

For me I'm 50/50 about the tackle after watching it a few times. I can understand why Ireland and their fans are not happy about it, as it knocked Henshaw out and he possibly did hit him with the shoulder first. But I still feel Henshaw fell into Cane and there was absolutely no intent from Cane to hit him in the head and I think he was wrapping, you see his right arm come around and his left arm is clearly wrapping.

If he gets banned, I 100% accept that. But in the context of things, I don't think you can give him a red card for such a pure accident, it really was an accident and just an unfortunate situation.

 

[corny]

I'd just like to call into question the integrity of that gif you posted. I have looked all over the internet for the source footage. The other angles that were displayed live to me and uploaded on youtube don't make it as clear. If you could find me the source of that gif, or an uploaded longer length video, I'd feel more comfortable about it's origin and authenticity.



The comments from the TMO asked by the ref were "Is he trying to wrap?", which was answered "Yes, he's trying to wrap."

For me I'm 50/50 about the tackle after watching it a few times. I can understand why Ireland and their fans are not happy about it, as it knocked Henshaw out and he possibly did hit him with the shoulder first. But I still feel Henshaw fell into Cane and there was absolutely no intent from Cane to hit him in the head and I think he was wrapping, you see his right arm come around and his left arm is clearly wrapping.

If he gets banned, I 100% accept that. But in the context of things, I don't think you can give him a red card for such a pure accident, it really was an accident and just an unfortunate situation.

Your own broadcast has the angle. 1.17 into this vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bjDQ61RLZw&feature=youtu.be

This is RTE...Irish tele...despite all the stuff about the Irish broadcast (most of you were watching a British station) they thought it was fine. Anyway, the angle is in there too.

https://vid.me/Npsg

 

[ratsapprentice]

http://news.rugbypass.com/view/a-note-to-everyone-complaining-about-that-sam-cane-tackle

 

[Makos]

Sam is wrapping, there were arms used in the tackle. You literally have to go frame by frame to catch the angle where it looks like his head hits his shoulder first and from the other angle it looks like the heads clash first and that other angle from the back is more clear during match time. I just don't see how the ref and TMO could have given a card for that with the footage that was available.

Sams leading with arms and Henshaw has fallen into his shoulder.

 

[corny]

For anyone who cares. Getting no coverage but this was Dane Coles swinging arm 5 minutes after Cane. Another dominant tackle.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=401955&stc=1&d=1479600497

Funny enough i thought Fekitoa was the only one not looking to get in a cheap shot. A bit like Sexton it was desperation stuff in defence and he got a bit clumsy. He'll be the only one banned probably but thats the irony of all this for me.

 

[Makos]

For anyone who cares. Getting no coverage but this was Dane Coles swinging arm 5 minutes after Cane. Another dominant tackle.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=401955&stc=1&d=1479600497

Funny enough i thought Fekitoa was the only one not looking to get in a cheap shot. A bit like Sexton it was desperation stuff in defence and he got a bit clumsy. He'll be the only one banned probably but thats the irony of all this for me.

Just interested to know, if on that board you talk about all the head rolls and offenses you committed, or if it's purely just an Irish circlejerk about how "thuggish" the All Blacks are, I'm certainly losing patience with your fan base and pathetic media over this.

If you call that "swinging arm" then you clearly don't have a clue.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

.ie = most likely an Irish circle jerk.

It wouldn't of been as bad if it wasn't for the commentary making mountains out of molehills IMO.

The most eyed one broadcast I have ever seen, worse than Barnes and worse than Butler and Davies watching Wales.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The most eyed one broadcast I have ever seen, worse than Barnes and worse than Butler and Davies watching Wales.

The Sky one?

 

[corny]

Just interested to know, if on that board you talk about all the head rolls and offenses you committed, or if it's purely just an Irish circlejerk about how "thuggish" the All Blacks are, I'm certainly losing patience with your fan base and pathetic media over this.

If you call that "swinging arm" then you clearly don't have a clue.

You're losing patience with our fan base and media. I better keep quiet then. Ha ha. Its just an opinion mate by an anonymous name on a screen. Lighten up.

There's a fair amount of circle jerk posters yeah. Get that everywhere i suppose. But occasionally good points are made. In this case the point being made that NZ lost control during the game and needlessly endangered other pros is a good one i think. I can show you a gif of Dagg shouldering Stander out of the game too if you like but something tells me you're not up for entertaining any talk of NZ wrongdoing. Safer to call me a whinger than deal with the unpleasantness!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Sam is wrapping, there were arms used in the tackle. You literally have to go frame by frame to catch the angle where it looks like his head hits his shoulder first and from the other angle it looks like the heads clash first and that other angle from the back is more clear during match time. I just don't see how the ref and TMO could have given a card for that with the footage that was available.

Sams leading with arms and Henshaw has fallen into his shoulder.

Its shpulder to head though, we've seen players sent off for damaging the head through legal actions before. Look at Stander in the first test in SA. The rules are protecting players against head injuries, Cane rather recklessly connected with a shoulder to Henshaw's head and concussed him and he should get a suspension under the current measures used in instances like this.

Also please stop tarring every Irish commenter under the same brush, apart from one fool who was quickly shut down not a single Irish poster here has said anything derogatory about your team or country, unfortunately it cannot be said the other way around when pointed out that the Irish media commentary you're so upset about was on a British broadcaster. Enjoy your win, accept that your players made mistakes and will be punished under current World Rugby guidelines and stop trying to rub perfectly reasonable posters on this forum's faces in the dirt.

- - - Updated - - -

And the fact we've come out of that game with three concussions compared to zero is a perfectly fine reason to be upset if you ask me.

 

[Shaggy]

For anyone who cares. Getting no coverage but this was Dane Coles swinging arm 5 minutes after Cane. Another dominant tackle.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=401955&stc=1&d=1479600497

Funny enough i thought Fekitoa was the only one not looking to get in a cheap shot. A bit like Sexton it was desperation stuff in defence and he got a bit clumsy. He'll be the only one banned probably but thats the irony of all this for me.

I'm pleased both players got cited TBH, let the judiciary decide if the Sam Cane one was a head clash or not. The desperation/clumsy argument doesn't excuse the fact that it's dangerous. The fact that Cane and Sexton are both injured anyway, probably means that they would be missing any games that they'd be suspended for anyway.

Assuming that he's fit, the ABs will probably want to give Ryan Crotty a run against the French, with ALB anyway, so there was a good chance that if Fekitoa was going to play, it would have been off the bench anyway.

None of my above reasoning excuses foul or dangerous play, and I am 100 % okay with any player being cited, regardless of the colour jersey that they wear. That's not admitting that a player is guilty, but that its better to go through the process. The argument that one player shouldn't be cited because another hasn't been, doesn't hold water for me either, all of them should be investigated and cited if deemed appropriate to do so.

From an All Black supporters prospective, I'm concerned about the discipline and the penalty count, and I'm hoping that it's an issue that's being addressed.

 

[jomjom]

boards.ie is not a reputable site. Think of it as an Irish reddit. Also, the vast majority of Irish people were watching it through our national station, RTE. Both the pundits and the commentary I found were well measured and reasonable in their criticisms and appraisals (especially Shane Horgan). I dont know what the Sky commentators said nor do I care to find out - if their news is anything to go by then it's absolute rubbish.

If you want to get sick and tired of the Irish fanbase based on some stuff you've seen on the internet and some one-eyed Sky commentator (not even going to put Claire McNamara into the equation), then go ahead. That in my books is equally as childish as those Irish who are whinging or whatever you want to call it.

 

[Groundhog]

Just interested to know, if on that board you talk about all the head rolls and offenses you committed, or if it's purely just an Irish circlejerk about how "thuggish" the All Blacks are, I'm certainly losing patience with your fan base and pathetic media over this.

If you call that "swinging arm" then you clearly don't have a clue.

Jesus Christ would you ever get over yourself? Your fans and media are at the very least as bad as ours given their day. There's hundreds of examples. That's what non-partisan fans and he media of a country do.
I honestly don't give a ****e for all this citing stuff, it was a pretty rough game and some players deserved sanctions on the field, and awful calls both way, but the game is over and we won't play NZ next week so I don't care, but honestly this playing the victim complex over people expressing worry for the safety of their players is the only pathetic thing here.

 

[saulan]

I'd just like to call into question the integrity of that gif you posted. I have looked all over the internet for the source footage. The other angles that were displayed live to me and uploaded on youtube don't make it as clear. If you could find me the source of that gif, or an uploaded longer length video, I'd feel more comfortable about it's origin and authenticity.



The comments from the TMO asked by the ref were "Is he trying to wrap?", which was answered "Yes, he's trying to wrap."

For me I'm 50/50 about the tackle after watching it a few times. I can understand why Ireland and their fans are not happy about it, as it knocked Henshaw out and he possibly did hit him with the shoulder first. But I still feel Henshaw fell into Cane and there was absolutely no intent from Cane to hit him in the head and I think he was wrapping, you see his right arm come around and his left arm is clearly wrapping.

If he gets banned, I 100% accept that. But in the context of things, I don't think you can give him a red card for such a pure accident, it really was an accident and just an unfortunate situation.

From a neutral perspective, I really didn't see anything in that, especially at normal speed. It looks like Cane wasn't expecting the spin out from Henshaw and Henshaw didn't expect there to be anyone in the space he was spinning in to. Result was the two of them smashing into each other what seems like head first, but Cane was at least prepared for the contact since he was going for a tackle, Henshaw probably wasn't and was taken by surprise. In fact I'm not sure if Cane made head contact. It looks like Cane moved his head away to avoid clashing heads and Henshaw ducked his head into Cane's shoulder. I think it was an unfortunate incident, but there really doesn't seem to be anything malicious in it and all. I feel like a penalty was probably warranted, but nothing more than that.

 

[Makos]

Some complaints I agree are 100% justified, but some are approaching green eyed political correct nonsense.

We bought a physical game to Dublin and made 200 tackles. Rugby is a contact sport and when you're making that many tackles some are going to be ugly.

Calling that Dan Coles tackle a "swinging arm" is about as soft and bias as it gets, I'm sure if you nitpick every match in the world you'd find indeticle technique to that multiple times and then some. You've got guys complaining Sam didn't use arms, then you have people saying Coles used a swinging arm. Which is it boys? You want us not to tackle?

Contact sport, 200 tackles, freeze frame every tackle you want to make it look like an illegal tackle..

It's getting pretty tiresome. We will see what the citing commission says and after that hopefully we can move on and this doesn't create too much animosity between the two nations which I fear it's starting to do.

 

[McTallshort]

I'd just like to call into question the integrity of that gif you posted. I have looked all over the internet for the source footage. The other angles that were displayed live to me and uploaded on youtube don't make it as clear. If you could find me the source of that gif, or an uploaded longer length video, I'd feel more comfortable about it's origin and authenticity.



The comments from the TMO asked by the ref were "Is he trying to wrap?", which was answered "Yes, he's trying to wrap."

For me I'm 50/50 about the tackle after watching it a few times. I can understand why Ireland and their fans are not happy about it, as it knocked Henshaw out and he possibly did hit him with the shoulder first. But I still feel Henshaw fell into Cane and there was absolutely no intent from Cane to hit him in the head and I think he was wrapping, you see his right arm come around and his left arm is clearly wrapping.

If he gets banned, I 100% accept that. But in the context of things, I don't think you can give him a red card for such a pure accident, it really was an accident and just an unfortunate situation.

Is that it? FFS yellow card at the most for being a clumsy sod but a citing? really?

 

[MikeTheNative]

From a neutral perspective, I really didn't see anything in that, especially at normal speed. It looks like Cane wasn't expecting the spin out from Henshaw and Henshaw didn't expect there to be anyone in the space he was spinning in to. Result was the two of them smashing into each other what seems like head first, but Cane was at least prepared for the contact since he was going for a tackle, Henshaw probably wasn't and was taken by surprise. In fact I'm not sure if Cane made head contact. It looks like Cane moved his head away to avoid clashing heads and Henshaw ducked his head into Cane's shoulder. I think it was an unfortunate incident, but there really doesn't seem to be anything malicious in it and all. I feel like a penalty was probably warranted, but nothing more than that.

I agree with all of this, I'm sure the citing will come to nothing. Fekitoa's was a bit nasty though and I think the yellow was warranted, not far off a red if it was a bit higher.