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[November Tests 2017 EOYT] Ireland vs. South Africa (11/11/2017)

Very poor by the Boks 2 thoughts

1. Drop the 30 cap rule, pick the best players no matter where they live. The South African economy and the lure of the bok shirt is no longer strong enough to stop the flight to the north
2. Sack Coetzee if the Boks don't win all 3 of the remaining tour games.
For the Bok players -

15 - AC played well. There's not much he could've done better. His style is conservative, but structure out of 15 is what SA want and need.

11 & 14 - totally outclassed. Leyds was no where all game and CS tried hard but lacked ability and was the primary person at fault for Ireland's 1st half try. I think that CS's opportunity should be over.

12 & 13 - nothing here as well. DDA and Kriel were both awful and did nothing to help the team. I want to see Venter and Am here next week.

10 - I have stood by EJ but he is done with me. Pollard next week 100%

9 - Ross tried hard but he is physically limited. Really showed in this game. Let's let Page start next week and give Ross a little time to clear his thoughts.

8 - FL is an excellent example of how older, overseas players just don't help. He is being relied on quite heavily due to his experience but his contribution does not match. Let him go! Allow for Cassiem, Mahoje or PSDT to start at 8.

6 & 7 - I thought PSDT was good and SK underwhelming. It appears that SK needs to play in a more free flowing style. He's not a grinder. Sadly, he might not be a good fit with test rugby.

4 & 5 - no problem here. EE is great and I think that that LDL has cemented his place.

Front 3 - nothing to improve on here. Unfortunate injury to CO early but I have no complaints about anyone's performance.


One thing I noticed about Cronje is that he pass from the base of the ruck isn't instant, he always takes a step before passing. This allows the defence to rush the passer.

2 years to the world cup. I still think the Boks will make it to the semi's at least. If you're going to go through a kak phase 2 years before the world cup is the time to do it.
 
Ireland were awesome.
Saffa's are woeful.
They can get it going at home sometimes but on the road they are woeful.
Congratulations Ireland, well structured victory.
 
Am I alone in thinking there's massive scope for improvement from Ireland? While up front, Ireland were very impressive, the back line didn't really click and the tactical kicking game was poor.

It's a shame to see the great rugby nation of South Africa perform like this. I'm not educated enough to say how to fix it but I hope they can find a solution.
 
Anyway from a game play perspective. Firstly our forwards didn't manage to get parity with the Irish - we definitely lost the scurms on aggregate and particularly in the latter half of the game they were more physical and we didn't front up.
Our forward runners off nine were predictable and ineffective.

Ross Cronje and Elton Jantjies are both good players playing a game that is utterly unsuited to them, they thrive off quick passing and recycling and when forced to play this more tactical game plan they look very ordinary

Kriel and DDA unfortunately both lack basic skills from an attacking standpoint, no ability to read the game and just draw and pass effectively to create space on the outside, this is partly due to our deep line and our half backs playing a game that they are unsuited to but our centres have become a black hole where backline play goes to die. Both good atheletes with no brains. Same goes in defense, DDA and Kriel can make hits but they consistently got outfoxed by the Irish attack and were drawn into the centre of the field letting the Irish get around us on multiple occasions. I still like DDA but am willing to concede he's not up to scratch from a distribution and decision making perspective, maybe he's just ordinary or maybe he's just not match fit, either way I concede he's definitely not the man for the job at this time.

Our wings didn't get any opportunity for reasons stated above but additionally are not good enough in the air to execute the game plan that AC wants to execute. Basically 12/13 - dummies 9/10/11/14 - all completely unsuited to this slowly executed attack that we seem to be playing.


In short I have no positives to take out of this game, perhaps its unfair to just blame the coach but he lacks the smarts to get the best out of the players he has selected. He doesn't seem to know his players or where they are best suited. He's never really coached a side that has been effective at scoring points.

Ultimately Johan Ackermans Lions/ Robert du Preez Sharks/ and even Flecks Stormers have a more coherent plan and ability to execute their game plan to score points, all three of those sides lose to the Irish but they put forward a much better performance than we saw yesterday. What are we actually trying to accomplish in attack, it's hard to imagine how we actually get points on the board with this side. Either our forwards really just dominate up front and we make ground that way or we look completely flat. AC must go but he won't because of politics, I've become increasingly convinced that we have no chance in 2019 with him at the helm.

I'm not convinced the 30 cap rule or selecting overseas based players is suddenly going to make our team better. Selection is less of a problem for me than gameplan, just a coherent strategy executed by the right players.


As for the Irish I feel bad, they are a good side who deserves better opposition to test themselves against. Now the fans have to wonder if they are really played fantastically or they just put away a woeful side who couldn't compete with them on any level.

I'm sorry to sound so pessimistic and part of that is just me hurting from the defeat. Suddenly all I really have to look forward to from a rugby perspective is SR and maybe the small prospect of AC getting fired. Ac's list of achievements as head coach thus far:

- First ever Bok loss to Italy
- First ever loss to Ireland on home soil
- First ever loss to Argentina away from home
- Largest ever loss to Wales
- Largest ever home loss to the All Blacks
- Largest ever away loss the the All Blacks
- Largest ever loss to Ireland
- Lowest ever win rate for a Bok coach at 40.9%
 
Am I alone in thinking there's massive scope for improvement from Ireland? While up front, Ireland were very impressive, the back line didn't really click and the tactical kicking game was poor.

It's a shame to see the great rugby nation of South Africa perform like this. I'm not educated enough to say how to fix it but I hope they can find a solution.
Yeah I agree, improvement is needed at 15 whether it's Stockdale (I don't think Conway has the aerial game) or an improvement from RK, Murray is better than he showed yesterday, Sexton could be better with a better Murr and Ringrose would improve the fluidity of the backline. Good place to be in.
 
Yeah I agree, improvement is needed at 15 whether it's Stockdale (I don't think Conway has the aerial game) or an improvement from RK, Murray is better than he showed yesterday, Sexton could be better with a better Murr and Ringrose would improve the fluidity of the backline. Good place to be in.
Robbie Henshaw and Bundee Aki aren't creative enough in midfield so Ireland need another playmaker in Garry Ringrose's absence. Easiest solution is to bring in Joey Carbery as fullback in the short term. That would provide a spark. Other change I'd make for the test in two weeks time against Argentina is Rhys Ruddock for Peter O'Mahony.
 
Anyway from a game play perspective. Firstly our forwards didn't manage to get parity with the Irish - we definitely lost the scurms on aggregate and particularly in the latter half of the game they were more physical and we didn't front up.
Our forward runners off nine were predictable and ineffective.

Ross Cronje and Elton Jantjies are both good players playing a game that is utterly unsuited to them, they thrive off quick passing and recycling and when forced to play this more tactical game plan they look very ordinary

Kriel and DDA unfortunately both lack basic skills from an attacking standpoint, no ability to read the game and just draw and pass effectively to create space on the outside, this is partly due to our deep line and our half backs playing a game that they are unsuited to but our centres have become a black hole where backline play goes to die. Both good atheletes with no brains. Same goes in defense, DDA and Kriel can make hits but they consistently got outfoxed by the Irish attack and were drawn into the centre of the field letting the Irish get around us on multiple occasions. I still like DDA but am willing to concede he's not up to scratch from a distribution and decision making perspective, maybe he's just ordinary or maybe he's just not match fit, either way I concede he's definitely not the man for the job at this time.

Our wings didn't get any opportunity for reasons stated above but additionally are not good enough in the air to execute the game plan that AC wants to execute. Basically 12/13 - dummies 9/10/11/14 - all completely unsuited to this slowly executed attack that we seem to be playing.


In short I have no positives to take out of this game, perhaps its unfair to just blame the coach but he lacks the smarts to get the best out of the players he has selected. He doesn't seem to know his players or where they are best suited. He's never really coached a side that has been effective at scoring points.

Ultimately Johan Ackermans Lions/ Robert du Preez Sharks/ and even Flecks Stormers have a more coherent plan and ability to execute their game plan to score points, all three of those sides lose to the Irish but they put forward a much better performance than we saw yesterday. What are we actually trying to accomplish in attack, it's hard to imagine how we actually get points on the board with this side. Either our forwards really just dominate up front and we make ground that way or we look completely flat. AC must go but he won't because of politics, I've become increasingly convinced that we have no chance in 2019 with him at the helm.

I'm not convinced the 30 cap rule or selecting overseas based players is suddenly going to make our team better. Selection is less of a problem for me than gameplan, just a coherent strategy executed by the right players.


As for the Irish I feel bad, they are a good side who deserves better opposition to test themselves against. Now the fans have to wonder if they are really played fantastically or they just put away a woeful side who couldn't compete with them on any level.

I'm sorry to sound so pessimistic and part of that is just me hurting from the defeat. Suddenly all I really have to look forward to from a rugby perspective is SR and maybe the small prospect of AC getting fired. Ac's list of achievements as head coach thus far:

- First ever Bok loss to Italy
- First ever loss to Ireland on home soil
- First ever loss to Argentina away from home
- Largest ever loss to Wales
- Largest ever home loss to the All Blacks
- Largest ever away loss the the All Blacks
- Largest ever loss to Ireland
- Lowest ever win rate for a Bok coach at 40.9%
If we lose to Italy again, then he must definitely go. Then we have a crisis on our hands, SARU then will have no other option but to appoint a coach halfway to the world cup. This list of his 'achievements' so far is very depressing to read.
 
Another thing that is sorely lacking with the current Bok team is a 'kop dokter' (team psychologist). The Boks had Henning Gerricke when Jake White was in charge and it worked wonders how good and most importantly competitive the Boks were. This team is mentally very fragile and very easy to rattle. And once they get rattled, everything just falls apart on attack and defense, like at Albany.
 
Robbie Henshaw and Bundee Aki aren't creative enough in midfield so Ireland need another playmaker in Garry Ringrose's absence. Easiest solution is to bring in Joey Carbery as fullback in the short term. That would provide a spark. Other change I'd make for the test in two weeks time against Argentina is Rhys Ruddock for Peter O'Mahony.
Can't disagree, the non selection of Scannell R is questionable enough now.
 
Anyway from a game play perspective. Firstly our forwards didn't manage to get parity with the Irish - we definitely lost the scurms on aggregate and particularly in the latter half of the game they were more physical and we didn't front up.
Our forward runners off nine were predictable and ineffective.

Ross Cronje and Elton Jantjies are both good players playing a game that is utterly unsuited to them, they thrive off quick passing and recycling and when forced to play this more tactical game plan they look very ordinary

Kriel and DDA unfortunately both lack basic skills from an attacking standpoint, no ability to read the game and just draw and pass effectively to create space on the outside, this is partly due to our deep line and our half backs playing a game that they are unsuited to but our centres have become a black hole where backline play goes to die. Both good atheletes with no brains. Same goes in defense, DDA and Kriel can make hits but they consistently got outfoxed by the Irish attack and were drawn into the centre of the field letting the Irish get around us on multiple occasions. I still like DDA but am willing to concede he's not up to scratch from a distribution and decision making perspective, maybe he's just ordinary or maybe he's just not match fit, either way I concede he's definitely not the man for the job at this time.

Our wings didn't get any opportunity for reasons stated above but additionally are not good enough in the air to execute the game plan that AC wants to execute. Basically 12/13 - dummies 9/10/11/14 - all completely unsuited to this slowly executed attack that we seem to be playing.


In short I have no positives to take out of this game, perhaps its unfair to just blame the coach but he lacks the smarts to get the best out of the players he has selected. He doesn't seem to know his players or where they are best suited. He's never really coached a side that has been effective at scoring points.

Ultimately Johan Ackermans Lions/ Robert du Preez Sharks/ and even Flecks Stormers have a more coherent plan and ability to execute their game plan to score points, all three of those sides lose to the Irish but they put forward a much better performance than we saw yesterday. What are we actually trying to accomplish in attack, it's hard to imagine how we actually get points on the board with this side. Either our forwards really just dominate up front and we make ground that way or we look completely flat. AC must go but he won't because of politics, I've become increasingly convinced that we have no chance in 2019 with him at the helm.

I'm not convinced the 30 cap rule or selecting overseas based players is suddenly going to make our team better. Selection is less of a problem for me than gameplan, just a coherent strategy executed by the right players.


As for the Irish I feel bad, they are a good side who deserves better opposition to test themselves against. Now the fans have to wonder if they are really played fantastically or they just put away a woeful side who couldn't compete with them on any level.

I'm sorry to sound so pessimistic and part of that is just me hurting from the defeat. Suddenly all I really have to look forward to from a rugby perspective is SR and maybe the small prospect of AC getting fired. Ac's list of achievements as head coach thus far:

- First ever Bok loss to Italy
- First ever loss to Ireland on home soil
- First ever loss to Argentina away from home
- Largest ever loss to Wales
- Largest ever home loss to the All Blacks
- Largest ever away loss the the All Blacks
- Largest ever loss to Ireland
- Lowest ever win rate for a Bok coach at 40.9%

I was not watching club rugby when AC was at Stormers so I really don't know his coaching style, but he did have over a 60% win percentage with them and he has been in the SARU orbit for a very long time.

When HM left there were quite a few commentators that were excited that he would be the Boks "first coach of color". And that this was a positive factor to add to his already long resume. For me, speaking as a white American, being excited about an organization having its first leader of color is NOT a quota. It is equity and progress.

To say that Ackerman, RdP or Fleck are better candidates is a stretch for me. Maybe they could get more wins with this team - I don't know. But for SARU to overlook AC for them would not be a good look for cultural and social institution.

For me, confidence is the Boks biggest issue and a lot of that is down to the inexperience of the team. I don't think that the Boks game play systems are that bad. They worked well enough against The ABs in Cape Town and I think that their problem in Dublin was confidence in the back line. If the backine was more confident and decisive both under the high ball and going wide then more moments could have gone the Boks way and the game could have been more competitive. Losing Connie early was also a big mental blow, overall I thought the scrums were well contested and fairly even, considering Marx and Loew's experience levels.

SARU's financial capacity is an issue. There are a number of players on Bok contracts that were picked by HM and are not playing regularly OR are playing poorly: Trevor, DDA, Pollard, Kriel, Lood is not a nailed down starter...

The centres are legacy selections. RdP probably can't get a shot due to Pollard already being on the books. SA needs a better contracting system and that is beyond AC's scope. I assume that working on this will be Rassie's role. AND Rassie is probably there to help better market the Boks to players like Serfontein who have turned down Bok contracts. Rassie's task is likely to get more players commuted to the Boks for the same amount of total money. He has a very hard job.
 
I was not watching club rugby when AC was at Stormers so I really don't know his coaching style, but he did have over a 60% win percentage with them and he has been in the SARU orbit for a very long time.

When HM left there were quite a few commentators that were excited that he would be the Boks "first coach of color". And that this was a positive factor to add to his already long resume. For me, speaking as a white American, being excited about an organization having its first leader of color is NOT a quota. It is equity and progress.

To say that Ackerman, RdP or Fleck are better candidates is a stretch for me. Maybe they could get more wins with this team - I don't know. But for SARU to overlook AC for them would not be a good look for cultural and social institution.
AC could win games but he won ugly. I think in one season under AC we won 16/18 pool games but we hadn't scored a single bonus point (which was just 4 tries back then). He has never coached a style of rugby where his team scores a lot of points.
In my opinion rugby has evolved to a point where that old style of play is ineffective, and even if it was still effective AC hasn't selected the players to execute that kind of game plan. He selects Ross Cronje and Jantjies/Skosan/Leyds which are all players that thrive on a more fast paced attacking game plan.

This isn't about race, I've defending quota's on this forum in the past, I'm young and liberal, he's just a bad coach and the evidence keeps piling up that this is the case. Maybe I shouldn't have brought up the other SR coaches but they represent the most successful of our unions over the past year, and they all seem to have a coherent idea about what they want to do in terms of game plan.

I know it's very easy to say "this isn't about race" but I've just reached the end of my tether with AC and it has nothing to do with the amount of melanin in his skin. We are 2 years into AC's tenure and I have yet to see anything from our team that would suggest they are well coached side.
 
Am I alone in thinking there's massive scope for improvement from Ireland? While up front, Ireland were very impressive, the back line didn't really click and the tactical kicking game was poor.

It's a shame to see the great rugby nation of South Africa perform like this. I'm not educated enough to say how to fix it but I hope they can find a solution.
Fully agree. Like if we are honest it was great win but against very poor team. We ain't world beaters but Schmidt and Co can only beat whats in front of them.

15 is huge issue, I think Hooked will become issue as Best is pushing on. We need Scannell for lineout. Centre is a big puzzle now. Yesterday was our best defensive unit at 10-12-13. Ringrose offers best outlet for attack. So where we play there. I was impressed by our backrow yesterday all 4 played well. On wings will Earls be in and Conway to 15 or what moves will be made there.

Biggest worries though - 15. Kearney has been great servant but time is up. Zebo might be U-turn so hopefully or else Carbery or Lamour. 10 needs depth.

Big plus is our prop situation looks really healthy. John Ryan looks an international class player and well Tadgh is World class. Big change from being dependant on 1 guy to try last 80
 
Big plus is our prop situation looks really healthy. John Ryan looks an international class player and well Tadgh is World class. Big change from being dependant on 1 guy to try last 80
Can't disagree. Big problem with the last World Cup campaign was lack of depth behind key frontline starters. Against Argentina, Ireland were shorn of Tommy Bowe, Jared Payne, Johnny Sexton, Sean O'Brien and Paul O'Connell and didn't have good enough backup. I hope lessons have been learned from that and backups for Conor Murray, Johnny Sexton and Tadhg Furlong in particular have a lot of experience behind them come 2019.
 
Can't disagree. Big problem with the last World Cup campaign was lack of depth behind key frontline starters. Against Argentina, Ireland were shorn of Tommy Bowe, Jared Payne, Johnny Sexton, Sean O'Brien and Paul O'Connell and didn't have good enough backup. I hope lessons have been learned from that and backups for Conor Murray, Johnny Sexton and Tadhg Furlong in particular have a lot of experience behind them come 2019.
And out of that list 10 is only issue. In a full team IF it was only 1 guy out I'd be ok if Ryan had to start or Marmion. 10 is issue bit can be fixed.
 
10 is an issue depending on the outcome of the Paddy Jackson case. He's has plenty of starting experience in big games, beating SA away for the first time in Irish rugby history and Australia at home in a backs to the wall performance last November. Played very well against NZ too and has a lot of 6 Nations appearances behind him.
 
10 is an issue depending on the outcome of the Paddy Jackson case. He's has plenty of starting experience in big games, beating SA away for the first time in Irish rugby history and Australia at home in a backs to the wall performance last November. Played very well against NZ too and has a lot of 6 Nations appearances behind him.
Agreed. My comment was on presumption PJ is unavailable
 
Player ratings coz why not?

Healy - 7 - really good in the scrum, did a bit around the park, wasn't needed to impose himself on the game.
Best - 7 - stood up fantastically well against Marx, great scrum usual stuff around the park
Furlong - 7 - read Healy!
Toner - 8 - Lots of tackles, threw himself about the park, even carried well, one of his best games in green.
Henderson - 7 - massive game from him, looks to be getting gritty and rough enough for the international game. More to come from him.
POM - 6 - good performance, was improved upon by Ruddock. In for a battle with no clear winner for the 6 shirt.
SOB - 7 - Getting back into it post Lions, didn't reach what he could but was consistent with the level the side played at.
Stander - 7 - Similar to SOB really!
Murray - 6 - Didn't need to have a great game and didn't, service wasn't up to his usual standards and neither were the box kicks which could have got us into trouble in other games.
Sexton - 7 - did what was needed of him, stupid penalty the only real mistake.
Stockdale - 8 - Great home debut, this boy will get loads of caps, haven't had such good lines from our wings since Bowe, a few good kicks and a good finish too.
Aki - 8 - Passionless performance from the Merc /s. Hit anything brave enough to come near him, ran hard too, doesn't have the hands that is desperately needed at 12 though.
Henshaw - 6 - had very little to do and made his fair share of handling errors, one could have started a good attack.
Conway - 7 - Strong performance, well taken try, kicking and aerial play wont have pleased the Joe Show at times.
Kearney - 5 - Positioning in the back field is still the best in the world for my money, wasn't match fit.

Bench - 10 - Right subs made at the right time and they performed, Ruddock and Ryan of Munster the pick of the bunch.

Joe - 8 - Easy win and probably hasn't shown his hand.

SA - 3 - the line out was good, Louw made that big hit, they scored... That's about it. Halfbacks and centre play was sad to watch.
 
Next week I'd like to see

Kilcoyne Tracy Ryan
Ryan Henderson
Ruddock Conan Leavy (I think those two are fit)
Marmion Carbery
McCloskey Henshaw
Conway Stockers Sweetnam

Herring McGarth Porter Dillane SOB McGarth Keatley Byrne
 
Next week I'd like to see

Kilcoyne Tracy Ryan
Ryan Henderson
Ruddock Conan Leavy (I think those two are fit)
Marmion Carbery
McCloskey Henshaw
Conway Stockers Sweetnam

Herring McGarth Porter Dillane SOB McGarth Keatley Byrne
Mine would be similar.

Conway, Byrne, Farrell, McCloskey, Sweetnam, Carbery, Marmion; McGrath, Herring, Ryan, Ryan, Dillane, Ruddock, O'Donnell, Conan.
Tracy, Kilcoyne, Porter, Treadwell, Leavy, McGrath, Keatley, D Kearney

Joe Schmidt has a habit of capping everybody named in a squad so I suspect we'll see quite a number of changes. Nobody named in the November squad misses out.

Dave Kilcoyne is the only player who benched against South Africa not to start. I could be wrong but think Jack McGrath missed the early part of last week through injury and assume he'll be plugged back in. If it was a form call, Kilcoyne starts this time out.

Debut for Adam Byrne but Dave Kearney could easily get the call because the back three lacks experience.

Tommy O'Donnell over Dan Leavy is a form call because Leavy hasn't been great since coming back from injury.
 

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