[November Tests 2017 EOYT] Ireland vs. South Africa (11/11/2017)

[Leonormous Boozer]

Mine would be similar.

Conway, Byrne, Farrell, McCloskey, Sweetnam, Carbery, Marmion; McGrath, Herring, Ryan, Ryan, Dillane, Ruddock, O'Donnell, Conan.
Tracy, Kilcoyne, Porter, Treadwell, Leavy, McGrath, Keatley, D Kearney

Joe Schmidt has a habit of capping everybody named in a squad so I suspect we'll see quite a number of changes. Nobody named in the November squad misses out.

Dave Kilcoyne is the only player who benched against South Africa not to start. I could be wrong but think Jack McGrath missed the early part of last week through injury and assume he'll be plugged back in. If it was a form call, Kilcoyne starts this time out.

Debut for Adam Byrne but Dave Kearney could easily get the call because the back three lacks experience.

Tommy O'Donnell over Dan Leavy is a form call because Leavy hasn't been great since coming back from injury.

That's probably a lot closer than mine. I forgot about Treadwell actually, I reckon he could start. TOD v Leavy is much of a much less right now but I love Leavy and really want him to get his international career going!

I'll be interested in who's at 15, RK is adequate but its really the only position that doesn't scream world class or has huge potential in my opinion.

 

[AM_Bokke]

AC could win games but he won ugly. I think in one season under AC we won 16/18 pool games but we hadn't scored a single bonus point (which was just 4 tries back then). He has never coached a style of rugby where his team scores a lot of points.
In my opinion rugby has evolved to a point where that old style of play is ineffective, and even if it was still effective AC hasn't selected the players to execute that kind of game plan. He selects Ross Cronje and Jantjies/Skosan/Leyds which are all players that thrive on a more fast paced attacking game plan.

This isn't about race, I've defending quota's on this forum in the past, I'm young and liberal, he's just a bad coach and the evidence keeps piling up that this is the case. Maybe I shouldn't have brought up the other SR coaches but they represent the most successful of our unions over the past year, and they all seem to have a coherent idea about what they want to do in terms of game plan.

I know it's very easy to say "this isn't about race" but I've just reached the end of my tether with AC and it has nothing to do with the amount of melanin in his skin. We are 2 years into AC's tenure and I have yet to see anything from our team that would suggest they are well coached side.

I 100% agree about the "old style" no longer being enough to win. It will take total systems change for Springbok rugby to adapt.

Boks were close to making significant meters ball-in-hand a few times but the final phases didn't click. They also turned the ball over a few times when in Ireland's half due to strong break down play from Ireland. Credit to them!

This game was 17-3 at the 70th minute with one try for Ireland from a horrible botch from the Boks. Then Ireland got a quick try before the Bok subs could get organized and the team just said screw it. I understand that it's disappointing and we want teams to play for 80 minutes but there are losing bonus points in rugby competitions because outcomes like this are actually a structural part of the sport that requires a special incentive. Deteriorization like the final 10 minutes happens in rugby. It's part of the game.

Ross is not a good box kicker but the Boks needed a variety of options to get over the gain line. They will need a variety of options at high level test rugby and World Cup play. Working on box kicking in a friendly against Ireland's defensive line is not the worst thing in the world.

SA playing depth is just very weak right now. I think that it will get better in the medium term but there needs to be a comprehensive strategy to address:

- player contracts / management
- top line revenue generation
- grass roots skill development

SARU can do it, but it is a large task and everyone needs to believe in themselves.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

When Aki, Henshaw and Ringrose are all fit, who starts?

 

[SomeOke]

I guess it comes down to; as it stands with the "controllable" variables on the South African rugby landscape how good can we be.
Meaning if we accept quota's and player migration as unchangeable realities can we still be a top three possibly even the top team in the world?

It's a tough question because if the answer is no, we as fans have to accept that in the current era SA literally can't compete with the best and we just have to accept that fact as out of our hands.
I suppose I kind of have to believe the answer is yes we can, or I'll go mad but I don't believe it's without basis.

Most people would call for more players of colour at the moment rather than less (Gelant/Am/Mampimpi) and I don't feel like any foreign players will make that much difference (Vermulen is just back from injury and was poor for us when we picked him last year, same goes for Flouw and Frans Steyn) I do believe SA produces enough talent to certainly at least compete with the likes of England, Ireland and Aus (only NZ categorically produces more talent in my mind).

Therefore I have to come to the conclusion that the problems are changeable - i.e. coaching, leadership, tactics.

Tl;DR, I don't think the narrative that quota's and overseas selection policies are what is holding us back at the moment.

 

[Amiga500]

10 is an issue depending on the outcome of the Paddy Jackson case.

Bill Johnston?

From our season so far, I'd have absolutely no reservations whatsoever pitching John Cooney into an international. I'd actually rate him far more suited to test matches than Marmion who's a little too off the cuff.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

have to ask, why would Ireland play in an away kit at home?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

have to ask, why would Ireland play in an away kit at home?

Home teams traditionally wear their alternate strip.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

all blacks wore their away strip when playing in France

 

[die_mole]

have to ask, why would Ireland play in an away kit at home?

Their change kit was also closer to South Africa's kit than their bright green shirt. It was hard for me to tell them apart without the shorts.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

all blacks wore their away strip when playing in France

As did England when playing in Argentina; it's not a set rule but it's the tradition.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

When Aki, Henshaw and Ringrose are all fit, who starts?

Henshaw and Ringrose with Aki on the bench I imagine with Ringrose covering wing from the field.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Just as I thought. We got slaughtered. And the bombs did the work for Ireland.

The only Saffa that meant anything on the field was CJ Stander.

This is so frustrating, I can't even bother to make a lengthy post about this.

All I'm going to say is I share Victor Matfield's views after the game. Allister Coetzee's time is running out.

 

[mdaclarke]

Rassie is coming, boks for Semi or Final at 2019 world cup

 

[Amiga500]

Player ratings coz why not?

Healy - 7 - really good in the scrum, did a bit around the park, wasn't needed to impose himself on the game.
Best - 7 - stood up fantastically well against Marx, great scrum usual stuff around the park
Furlong - 7 - read Healy!
Toner - 8 - Lots of tackles, threw himself about the park, even carried well, one of his best games in green.
Henderson - 7 - massive game from him, looks to be getting gritty and rough enough for the international game. More to come from him.
POM - 6 - good performance, was improved upon by Ruddock. In for a battle with no clear winner for the 6 shirt.
SOB - 7 - Getting back into it post Lions, didn't reach what he could but was consistent with the level the side played at.
Stander - 7 - Similar to SOB really!
Murray - 6 - Didn't need to have a great game and didn't, service wasn't up to his usual standards and neither were the box kicks which could have got us into trouble in other games.
Sexton - 7 - did what was needed of him, stupid penalty the only real mistake.
Stockdale - 8 - Great home debut, this boy will get loads of caps, haven't had such good lines from our wings since Bowe, a few good kicks and a good finish too.
Aki - 8 - Passionless performance from the Merc /s. Hit anything brave enough to come near him, ran hard too, doesn't have the hands that is desperately needed at 12 though.
Henshaw - 6 - had very little to do and made his fair share of handling errors, one could have started a good attack.
Conway - 7 - Strong performance, well taken try, kicking and aerial play wont have pleased the Joe Show at times.
Kearney - 5 - Positioning in the back field is still the best in the world for my money, wasn't match fit.

I'd more or less agree with that, drop Aki to 7 for too many passes behind the receiver and Conway to 6 as almost every high ball he got hands on in the contest, he knocked on. If the SA back three had been competent at all, he'd have looked very ordinary.

Agree with everyone else, the bok half-backs were desperately, desperately poor. Are there no better alternatives?

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'd more or less agree with that, drop Aki to 7 for too many passes behind the receiver and Conway to 6 as almost every high ball he got hands on in the contest, he knocked on. If the SA back three had been competent at all, he'd have looked very ordinary.

Agree with everyone else, the bok half-backs were desperately, desperately poor. Are there no better alternatives?

I would have given Stander a 9. He was the most influential player at the breakdown areas, and spoiled nearly every good ball we had.

 

[Ospervat]

Unrated said it best re SA rugby....The pessimists are the realists and the optimists are delusional.

It's time for the international community to pull their collective heads out of the sand. The state of SA Rugby is a symptomatic example of a much bigger socio-political evil in SA today. The longer it is allowed to continue the worse SA Rugby performances will become.

Why are people so damned afraid to discuss the truth. SARU is an organisation structured around enforced Government policies designed to address the injustices of the past and feed their insatiable appetites for retribution. The new masters are very happy with their work as the demise of SA Rugby becomes a reality.

How many times do you have to witness the implementation of these types of strategy in Africa before you realise the true objective.

Wake up!

 

[Amiga500]

It's time for the international community to pull their collective heads out of the sand. The state of SA Rugby is a symptomatic example of a much bigger socio-political evil in SA today. The longer it is allowed to continue the worse SA Rugby performances will become.

Why are people so damned afraid to discuss the truth. SARU is an organisation structured around enforced Government policies designed to address the injustices of the past and feed their insatiable appetites for retribution.

1. The ANC are utterly riddled with corruption at this point in time.
2. That is not saying there are not admiral upstanding folks within the ANC that want to do the best for everyone in SA, but unfortunately they are not in a position to purge the rotten core within at the moment.
3. There is great hope (at least within the Western Cape) that DA will sufficiently challenge ANC in the next election to at least be able to block their more idiotic moves.
4. The value of the Rand relative to the Euro or Pound has nothing to do with the SARU.
5. The SARU are beholden to the law, same as the RFU are subject to the law in England.

About the only thing the SARU could do, would be to allow overseas players to play for the boks without cap restrictions etc. But would that result in even more players leaving SA for Europe? Would it even make much difference to the boks?

 

[Gena_ZA]

Unrated said it best re SA rugby....The pessimists are the realists and the optimists are delusional.

It's time for the international community to pull their collective heads out of the sand. The state of SA Rugby is a symptomatic example of a much bigger socio-political evil in SA today. The longer it is allowed to continue the worse SA Rugby performances will become.

Why are people so damned afraid to discuss the truth. SARU is an organisation structured around enforced Government policies designed to address the injustices of the past and feed their insatiable appetites for retribution. The new masters are very happy with their work as the demise of SA Rugby becomes a reality.

How many times do you have to witness the implementation of these types of strategy in Africa before you realise the true objective.

Wake up!

No worries, all will be sorted , will just take a decade or two

 

[Nubiwan]

1. The ANC are utterly riddled with corruption at this point in time.
2. That is not saying there are not admiral upstanding folks within the ANC that want to do the best for everyone in SA, but unfortunately they are not in a position to purge the rotten core within at the moment.
3. There is great hope (at least within the Western Cape) that DA will sufficiently challenge ANC in the next election to at least be able to block their more idiotic moves.
4. The value of the Rand relative to the Euro or Pound has nothing to do with the SARU.
5. The SARU are beholden to the law, same as the RFU are subject to the law in England.

About the only thing the SARU could do, would be to allow overseas players to play for the boks without cap restrictions etc. But would that result in even more players leaving SA for Europe? Would it even make much difference to the boks?

Sorry, outside watching just about any southern hem rugby I can get my hands on, I am in something of a vacuum when it comes to the political situation and the boks. Outside the innuendo I read, it's hard for me to put 2 and 2 together.

Can someone give me the background on what has developed in recent years to weaken the SARU? Losing players to northern rugby being one issue I read, but what 'political' pressures do they face, if any, which undermine the strength of their sides?

Sorry, but not so clear here in a politically stable North America, where electoral candidates range from bozo the clown to Arnold Schwarzenegger, and the only news worthy foreign nations are Syria, Iraq and North Korea.

 

[Nubiwan]

Their change kit was also closer to South Africa's kit than their bright green shirt. It was hard for me to tell them apart without the shorts.

I second that. My immediate reaction was woah, that kit's got to go. Can't believe it was allowed, to be honest. So close where the colours.

My opinion on the tradition side of things, from a purely basic club, school level, is that the home team 'traditionally' would go find a spare set of jerseys, if and when a colour clash occurred. Easier for the home side to sort out an alternate strip than the away side. At least, that's where I think it all stems from.

Otherwise, people want to see the all blacks in black, and Ireland in Green. Ireland kit selection was attrocious, if I am being aesthetically critical. Clearly, the intent is to sell a few away jerseys. Nothing more.