[November Tests 2017 EOYT] Italy vs. South Africa (25/11/2017)

Discussion in 'International Test Matches' started by TRF_heineken, Nov 21, 2017.

  1. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Venue: Stadio Euganeo, Padova
    Time: 15:00 CAT (SA, GMT+2)
    Teams

    Italy: TBA

    South Africa: 15 Andries Coetzee, 14 Dillyn Leyds, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Francois Venter, 11 Courtnall Skosan, 10 Handre Pollard, 9 Ross Cronje, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth (captain), 3 Wilco Louw, 2 Bongi Mbonambi, 1 Tendai Mtawarira

    Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Steven Kitshoff, 18 Trevor Nyakane, 19 Franco Mostert, 20 Dan du Preez, 21 Rudy Paige, 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 Warrick Gelant

     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
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  3. unrated

    unrated First XV

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    With AC admitting that Montpellier is a big reason for Francois Steyns continued omission from the Boks squad (also Bismarck) it has cleared up the old question of why he is not picked.
    However we can soon judge the honesty of this statement by witnessing whether or not Jan Serfontein gets picked in the future as he is playing for the same club. Surely the club will hold Serfontein by the same standards as their other South Africans.
    If Serfontein gets picked for next years Championship and Steyn does not then we have very reliable evidence that AC is a serial liar.

    http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/issues-with-steyns-club-coetzee-admits-20171121
     
  4. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    Well, we know that Kolisi won't play this match. He's back in SA for the birth of his child but will join the boks again next week ahead of the Wales test.

    So I wonder if PSDT will slot in Kolisi's place, or will Dan Du Preez make a start.

    The other question is if Gelant and Am will get their chance?
     
  5. Bruce_ma_goose

    Bruce_ma_goose First XV

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    All good things must come to an end - and so if is with Italy as they likely slip to having lost their last encounter with every Tier1 nation.

    Still a bit bummed by the meek surrender against the Pumas and the lack to ambition shown in open play this November. A 20 minute spell of more open play against the Pumas and maybe 10 mins against Fiji. I'd honestly take some ambition and execution and a loss over a bum squeaking, stuff it up the jumper victory like last time around. Short term results are irrelevant, long term play style is what counts.

    The Boks tactics against France would be perfect for Italy though. Their scrum, set piece and kicking were all on good form against the Pumas; and the Boks couldn't win through brute force alone last time. Still, I think the Bok morale is higher this year for whatever reason and they should get enough penalties in the Italian half to win.

    The game most likely to have zero tries this weekend.
     
  6. AM_Bokke

    AM_Bokke Academy Player

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    Interesting article huh?

    While I think that AC is horrible with the media - his "I don't work for Twitter" comment was especially bad - I feel that it is inappropriate and unfair to him to deliver this news. This is a financial and organizational issue with how SA Rugby manages the national team. It is a big problem that needs root level strategies and solutions.

    While Francois Steyn has some issues specific to him, the fact is that playing for the Boks is a career and financial risk for the top level players that can command European contracts. This is the reality. This is why I think that Rassie Erasmus becoming the Boks coach after the tour is a bad idea. He needs to get the contracting and player management situation sorted. SA Rugby has two strategic issues that they must clarify:

    1) How to best contract promising SA players that have not yet left South Africa. It is seams clear to me that they are being very careful about who is offered a Bok contract because they tie up limited resources. SA Rugby needs to keep players like Etzebeth, Kolisi, Pollard, du Toit in South Africa from a young age and playing for the Boks day-in-day out into their 30s if they want and are able. Serfontein turning down a Bok contract is bad. A big part of Rassie's job is making sure that when central contract offers are made that they are accepted.

    2) Having a good relationship with Euro clubs so that players can go overseas but then be able to come back and play in SA for a year or so (a larger chuck of time than test windows) to both nestle in with the Boks, maintain some exposure to SH rugby and help to nurture and grow young players. I have no problem with players going overseas and then coming back to play for the Boks but there almost needs to be an agreement for "gap years" so that players can be close to the Boks and are part of the SA set-up for a longer and more consistent period of time. I want SA Rugby players to have opportunities. If a rural SA kid, black or white, has an international opportunity that is great. It alone is worth supporting, but SA Rugby needs experienced players in SA. Opportunities for future generations will dry up with experienced players nurturing young talent in other countries. To keep the opportunities coming, experienced top-level players must spend some significant time in SA. This is an inter-generational issue that an organization like a Union is charged with solving. This could affect players like Franco Mostert and Francois Venter who probably can't be offered Bok contracts based on age and performance but SA Rugby should try and keep in the mix. They could go overseas for 2 years and hopefully come back or sign a 4 years contract with a gap year to play in SA 2019-2020, or something.

    Rassie's job as the Director of Ruby is to get this sorted out. It is not to coach the Boks day-in-day out. I could see Pro 14 clubs/regions possibly being open to a contract system that allows for more flexibility for Bok selections and time in SA (not sure about England and probably not France). These are the kind of deals Rassie needs to do to earn his salary if you ask me.

    It will take awhile for SA Rugby to be in a stable and well organized enough place to have top-level players aged 28 to 33 available for them on any regular and consistent basis. They will also need some things to go their way like a better South African government that can provide some financial security and get the currency moving in the other direction.

    As for Serfontein specifically, I think that he might play against England, and in the End of Year Internationals, but not in next year's Rugby Championship.
     
  7. AM_Bokke

    AM_Bokke Academy Player

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    Hmm, zero tries? Seems harsh to me.

    I am just finishing up watching the Fiji - Ireland game and I think Fiji played well. Compliments to Italy for beating them.

    The Boks have certainly been playing better this year. It is a young, inexperienced team with a lot of nervousnesss. I expect for them to play pretty well against Italy. They will surely kick some of those penalties into the corner and maul the Italians over. If they did it to the All Blacks and the Wallabies they can do it to Italians.

    I will call this one 24 - 11 to the Boks.
     
  8. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    Well, I think there's a few scenarios that could happen this game, depending on who gets picked.

    If we add some more creativity to our backline with Am and Gelant, and give them the freedom to express themselves, then I can see a lot of tries being scored.

    The question is if we might rest a few other guys like Marx and Etzebeth, who picked up niggles in the France game.
     
  9. John van eeden

    John van eeden Bench Player

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    This would be the perfect chance for both Gelant and Am but AC have already said that he will pick his strongest team , in my view adding Am and Gelant will make this a stronger team .... in AC view .... well does he know anything about rugby even ?

     
  10. sharkfan

    sharkfan Academy Player

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    Mama Mia! No more defeats to Italy please!
     
  11. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    Bok team announced.

    PSDT in Kolisi's place, and Mbonambi starts while Marx gets a rest.

    Gelant and Chilliboy on the bench.

    No Am
     
  12. SomeOke

    SomeOke First XV

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    Not surprised by the team but obviously a little disappointed to not see Gelant or Am getting a start.
    Bongi starting is a good thing. We have good cover at prop but no cover at hooker, Bongi needed a trial by fire sooner or later, even though it makes the team weaker.

    At least Gelant is on the bench, it's the bare minimum for creative selection but hopefully he gets a decent run. I have no idea how good Italy are these days but we should win this one. We've had a better year than last year (barely).

    I still kind of hope we lose just because I'm so terrified of another year of AC. Just thinking that if we beat Wales they may give him more of a chance. Would love to give someone 6 years to prep a team for 2023.
     
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  13. unrated

    unrated First XV

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    Chiliboy on the bench worries me. Keyboard warriors were throwing virtual bricks at the Sharks management for not including him in the Sharks 23 for the final stages of the Currrie cup as they said he is a Springbok. but Sharks fans seriously questioned his inclusion in the first place as he was not even the best at the Sharks and now he is only the 3d best hooker at the Sharks nevermind at international level.
    @Bruce_ma_goose if you question the presence of quotas in South African sports this is a perfect example.
     
  14. AM_Bokke

    AM_Bokke Academy Player

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    Is it just me or does Bongi resemble Mike Tyson?

    Here's to hoping that the Boks feel comfortable at the 60 minute mark and Page and Gelant can come on and run over a few late tries like Ireland did to us and England to Australia. A victory like that will go a long way with a lot of people.

    No centre on the bench is a bit odd. If Kriel or Venter have to leave the game then someone must play out of position. Gelant certainly plays in this scenario.

    I am feeling bullish. I had Boks 27 to 11. But I think that I will open it up a bit for the Boks to win 35 to 11.
     
  15. Bruce_ma_goose

    Bruce_ma_goose First XV

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    Italy lose Sarto on the wing - which would be a loss if they intended playing with their backs. The biggest omission for them in this match is Padovani at fullback. His monster boot and aerial ability would have been key for a territorial arm wrestle. It's an okay 23 though.

    Italy: 15 Jayden Hayward, 14 Angelo Esposito, 13 Tommaso Boni, 12 Tommaso Castello, 11 Mattia Bellini, 10 Carlo Canna, 9 Marcello Violi, 8 Sergio Parisse (c), 7 Abraham Steyn, 6 Giovanni Licata, 5 Dean Budd, 4 Marco Fuser, 3 Simone Ferrari, 2 Luca Bigi, 1 Andrea Lovotti

    Replacements: 16 Leonardo Ghiraldini, 17 Federico Zani, 18 Tiziano Pasquali, 19 Francesco Minto, 20 Renato Giammarioli, 21 Edoardo Gori, 22 Ian Mckinley, 23 Matteo Minozzi
     
  16. Bruce_ma_goose

    Bruce_ma_goose First XV

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    Given that your first choice Boks hooker is widely regarded at being well below average international standard at lineouts (but great at everything else) I'd suggest an alternative explanation may be that there isn't great strength in depth at hooker for you guys. I can't comment on Chilliboy though as I've not seen him play.
     
  17. AM_Bokke

    AM_Bokke Academy Player

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    I don't think that Chiliboy is in the squad to play. He is one of the more experienced players that is available for selection, has played in Europe and come back from personal adversity. He is in the squad for those reasons.

    If course with Marx unavailable he needs to be in the 23 but I doubt that the plan is for him to play very much.
     
  18. Bruce_ma_goose

    Bruce_ma_goose First XV

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  19. Bruce_ma_goose

    Bruce_ma_goose First XV

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    Italy started brightly (and to my pleasant surprise, playing with some ambition) but are falling out of the game as the Bok pack outmuscles them and takes control. Disappointed with Italian set piece after praising it. They need to improve quickly at lineout (attack and defence) or this game will slip away from them long before the end.
     
  20. The Alpha Bro

    The Alpha Bro Fat Boi

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    This is such a slow paced game, exactly what SA would want really.
     
  21. Bruce_ma_goose

    Bruce_ma_goose First XV

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    Comic-cuts by Hayward and Bellini against a cross-kick and the game is effectively already over. Treviso reserves looked better last night! Really not liking what I've seen from Hayward so far compared to Padovani. Hopefully Minozzi gets a run out at fullback later in the game. Italy are on track to slip to the 8th ranked European side today (presumably for the first time in the modern era) - I want to see some fecking fire in the belly about that prospect!

    Fair play to the Boks, they are far more cohesive this time than the same fixture last year and their motivation cannot be questioned (unlike last year).
     
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