Nucifora has denied blocking the signing of Moore

[Peat]

Anyone believe this?

Any thoughts on the rest of his interviews today?

 

[sixesauldman]

I find it most unlikely that he would lie, thought Sherry did really well the other day and will only get better.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think Nucifora is a spoofer, he's done jack **** since coming in. Whether he lied here or not is irrelevant to his lacklustre job performance.

 

[big ginger 8]

I don't think he's lying but I heard that they would only allocate a certain amount of funds so essentially blocked it as Moore wasn't willing to take the paycut.

I find it hard to form an opinion on him yet, his position is by it's nature something with a long term view. Therefore unless things start going disastrously I'll reserve judgement until 2019.

Quality over quantity for NIQ's is something I'm very much in agreement with so I hope we see the quality happen. Will be interesting to see who the 'top class' replacement for Williams is at Ulster.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

A link to some of what David Nucifora said for those who haven't seen it:
http://www.the42.ie/david-nucifora-irfu-world-cup-review-2516917-Dec2015/

He makes some valid points. If Ireland want to improve beyond a World Cup, they can't keep doing as they have since the game went pro. To me that reads that there'll be no more second rate signings in positions where Ireland are weak. The days of the likes of Jimmy Gopperth, Zane Kirchner and the like are coming to an end. If there's a talented young player, the new system will ensure they won't be blocked by a quick fix solution. Given Ireland's limited resources, that can only be a good thing.

I've a feeling it'll lead to short term pain for the provinces while they get their heads around the new succession planning. Once they do, the new system will run seamlessly.

EDIT - on a side note, throwing money at an injury prone Sean O'Brien may not have been the best use of resources. That money could have been better spent elsewhere.

 

[munstermuffin]

Just on this. I know 100% the truth behind it and Nucifora isn't fully wrong but that story isn't fully accurate.
But just on Nucifora his record has been shocking in almost every job he's been in.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Just on this. I know 100% the truth behind it and Nucifora isn't fully wrong but that story isn't fully accurate.
But just on Nucifora his record has been shocking in almost every job he's been in.

He does tend to fall out with people. Maybe that's what's needed, someone who'll butt heads and force through his message. What is clear is that the way Ireland had been doing things needs to change.

 

[Peat]

If you're falling out with people, you're not getting the message through. You're failing to get the message through. Not being afraid to fall out with people if needed is a strength, but constantly doing so is a weakness.

My main reaction to this all is head-scratching and a sense of 'That's it?'. It strikes me as pretty astounding if this is all the head honcho of pro rugby in Ireland had to say or answer at a major press conference.

For example, what about coaches? It's pretty manifest that the coaching set-up at Munster currently isn't strong enough; that the Leinster set-up probably isn't strong enough; and that Ulster's set-up last season wasn't strong enough. That's a pretty gigantic weakness - how are players meant to progress for province to international, or win the trophies needed to keep funds and interest high, if they don't have the right guidance? How on earth did no one say ought to Nucifora about that?

There's two great underlying weaknesses at play there. The first is the development of Irish coaches in Ireland. If Foley and Doak is the best that can be done, that seems a pretty grim state of affairs. The second is the failure to get top international talent in - and, tbh, you've got to really ask why the best coaches would want a provincial job when the pay's getting proportionately worse and the restrictions are getting tighter. If the provinces can't develop good coaches and can't get them in, they're going to hurt significantly.

And this is the rub. Just how much all this will hurt the provinces - and just how much their pain will impinge on Ireland. And how much this will help. Everyone wants as many Irish players at the top as possible and accept that given the current numbers there, things will probably need to change, that's just common sense. The devil is in the details.

I don't think Ulster can't compete in Europe with just 2 NIQs. I'm not even sure Ulster could compete in the Pro 12 with just 2 NIQs. If, say, Herbst, FvdM and Ludik all were injured for the season next game, I'd probably run up the white flag now without medical jokers. And an Ulster that's not at the top is not, imo, going to be as good a place to groom players for the top, nor will it continue to attract as much attention, nor will it be as guaranteed to keep its best Irish players. Frankly, Ulster have been close enough to not being at the top and that maybe starting to happen with 5 NIQs including a world class one.

I'm guessing the big idea is to start moving players around the provinces to smooth out the gaps. It's an obvious goal but I'll believe in it when I see it. I don't know who Ulster approached or how much they were offering, but last time they were looking for a back row, the best we could find was Clive Ross. Gilsenan left the country; I don't know whether he was approached, but I feel happy guessing he's on more at LI and there's the crunch - for a Dublin boy who know's he's not got a sniff of the Ireland team at present, would you rather be in London/the South of France with more money, or Belfast/Limerick with less? That's the big issue confronting this whole idea. If Nucifora somehow starts talking Madigan into going to Munster, and so on, then maybe it's doable. Not holding my breath.

I'm rambling and losing the run of myself but I think if Nucifora thinks the answer to Irish rugby's problems are less foreigners and more provincial movement he's going to run into some problems. How he'll handle them remains to be seen. Personally I think there's a bigger issue with a crowd of journeymen sucking up money to not be good enough but have a job solely because they're IQ.

Final points -

Allowing Munster to offer a contract to Moore but ensuring it'll be a contract he doesn't want to sign is still blocking it (and that's the version I've been told too).

If Ulster end up with a worse NIQ than Romano I'll be pretty grumpy. Fair enough, Irish lock stocks are pretty low right now (although why not just tell Ulster 'No locks'?) and that needs careful management but for him to say the provinces should recruit world class players, then block them from doing so, is pretty useless.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

He got the message through just fine at the Brumbies where he coached a Super Rugby winning team! I also assume he got on just fine with Joe Schmidt at the Blues since they're working together again and his experience with the ARU will help him in his role with the IRFU. He's a tough nut which is what is needed in my view.

Not throwing unwaivering support behind Munster signing Stephen Moore makes sense. Why throw a chunk of money at a player who'll still be available for international rugby. Munster's starting hooker is an Ireland international with a young backup who has captained the Ireland u20s and another decent pro in his mid 20s also there? Ireland's current top 3 hookers turn 34, 30 and 30 respectively next year so the national team needs fresh blood playing regularly. From a succession planning point of view, it doesn't make sense.

Charles Piutau wouldn't be winging his way towards Ulster next season if he was anti-NIQ signings. I can't speak of the Luke Romano veto because I haven't heard about it. On the face it it, I presume Nucifora and Joe Schmidt want Iain Henderson getting as much time on the 2nd row as possible. With Franco van der Merwe, Ireland international Dan Tuohy and the promising Alan O'Connor also on the books, is spending big on another second row the best use of resources when the backrow is a glaring weakness?

If he blocked Leinster bringing in a backrow, it was also the right call since it has afforded Josh van der Flier, Dan Leavy and Jack Conan game time. Not to be a Nucifora apologist because the Sean Doyle situation in Munster seems bizarre (maybe @munstermuffin can shed some light on it).

Irish rugby needs to be smarter about it's use of resources. We don't have the monster commercial deals which the Top 14 and Premiership have and as such won't be able to attract unlimited big name players. Just looking at the Leinster squad, I can see around 10 players who add very little value to the squad and will never become internationals at a total salary estimate of roughly €650000 (there's one notable international included!). Would it not be a better use of resources to spend big on one NIQ in the second row or at scrum half and invest significant game time in the likes of Cian Kelleher, Peter Dooley, Ross Molony and Adam Byrne who could reach that level? The same holds true for the other provinces. Cut the dross, spread the wealth (why have Leinster a ton of backrows when Ulster need some badly; likewise Ulster with outside backs when Munster are importing loads) and use the cost savings on leaner squads to attract select top class signings rather than the type which are clogging up squads at the moment (with Leinster huge culprits).

Coaching is an issue which needs to be addressed, no arguments here. As is the premium placed on players who are Ireland qualified to fill out a squad even though they're no use (certainly an enormous issue with Ulster at the moment).

 

[munstermuffin]

Snoop as I said I'm not saying he's wrong but he's not 100% correct and there's no proof his idea is the right way. Yeah the current model is wrong to a certain extent but what is the correct model proceeding.

Also Merry Christmas chaps.

 

[Groundhog]

Pointing to Nucifora's success as a coach is irrelevant here I feel, this is far from a coaching position. It's about analysing the best use of resources and ensuring the best distribution of Ireland's players and I think it's time to ask, what has Nucifora done? It doesn't take a keen eye to spot where the provinces and our young players could benefit from a move but very little has actually done. I have to question the wisdom of getting an Australian in to do a job which requires a deep knowledge of the Irish game and our rugby culture. I fully agree with blocking the Moore deal, it's money wasted in an area we have a lot of talent in total contrast to the TH prop position for example but it's time to make positive moves if we're to actually justify bringing this guy in. The idea of bringing in about two world class guys is all very well but the fact is were often short in more than one area and we can often get great value from relatively unknown quantities. Just look at some of the great signings Glasgow have brought in over the recent years for relatively low money because they clearly did their research. These are the moves we should be making. It's a nice idea to always give our indigenous talent a go, but in Ireland out players seem to be developed in a culture where they learn their trade for a few years regardless of potential and come onto the scene relatively late compared to other nations. This is another area which need to change, as we have these big long rebuilding phases due to our young guys having never got a decent crack of the whip, and that should be Nucifora's primary concern.

Snoop as I said I'm not saying he's wrong but he's not 100% correct and there's no proof his idea is the right way. Yeah the current model is wrong to a certain extent but what is the correct model proceeding.

Also Merry Christmas chaps.

Still up for a few pints after the game Muff?

 

[munstermuffin]

Pointing to Nucifora's success as a coach is irrelevant here I feel, this is far from a coaching position. It's about analysing the best use of resources and ensuring the best distribution of Ireland's players and I think it's time to ask, what has Nucifora done? It doesn't take a keen eye to spot where the provinces and our young players could benefit from a move but very little has actually done. I have to question the wisdom of getting an Australian in to do a job which requires a deep knowledge of the Irish game and our rugby culture. I fully agree with blocking the Moore deal, it's money wasted in an area we have a lot of talent in total contrast to the TH prop position for example but it's time to make positive moves if we're to actually justify bringing this guy in. The idea of bringing in about two world class guys is all very well but the fact is were often short in more than one area and we can often get great value from relatively unknown quantities. Just look at some of the great signings Glasgow have brought in over the recent years for relatively low money because they clearly did their research. These are the moves we should be making. It's a nice idea to always give our indigenous talent a go, but in Ireland out players seem to be developed in a culture where they learn their trade for a few years regardless of potential and come onto the scene relatively late compared to other nations. This is another area which need to change, as we have these big long rebuilding phases due to our young guys having never got a decent crack of the whip, and that should be Nucifora's primary concern.

Still up for a few pints after the game Muff?

A1 boys if ye are down

 

[Peat]

I think it is fair to point at his coaching record in terms of his ability to get his message across, although it's not quite the same thing. It's also fair to point out he was sacked from the Brumbies job due to a mass player revolt after said ***le. A tough nut is needed but so too is a diplomat.

The whole 'still playing international rugby' is a massive rob herring. If Ulster get their money's worth out of Pienaar - which is unquestionable - then why wouldn't Munster get their money's worth out of Moore? I can't pretend I wouldn't prefer it if Pienaar did retire, although that's more to do with fatigue levels than missing games (which at least offer opportunities to younger players), but the example he offers and the quality he brings for the big games outweighs that. Hugely.

Besides, if people are really serious about the idea of getting 2 World Class players for each province, does anyone think that can actually be achieved if you bar all players with international careers? That basically restricts the provinces to Kiwis, English, Argentines, Aussies under 60 caps, and the really old/irritable. It's not a big enough pool, not when the rest of the world wants these players (and can offer more) and most of the possibilities there ranged from somewhat to highly theoretical.

It is a fair point that maybe Moore wasn't needed/would have mucked up succession planning. Maybe. Moore/Sherry reads a lot more like a top team than Sherry/Scannell. Best turns 34, but is resilient as hell, in a position where age doesn't matter too much, and has a contract until 2018. It's quite possible he will retain the position right until the end. 30 is no age for a hooker, so Strauss/Cronin could be tussling for the shirt all the way to the next World Cup. Behind them are Herring and Sherry - both already capped, and second choice hookers have a lot of responsibility as is. Not sure if Harris-Wright deserves to be part of this conversation or not (ditto the possibility of Annett returning post-Best). It's not like Moore wouldn't have offered a lot to Sherry and Scannell in terms of leadership and knowledge either; he is the World Class player Nucifora is talking about, and I'm not sure how many others will be willing to move to Munster. Still, Scannell's a big talent would needs to be kicking on, and the succession position is reasonable rather than strong, so I can see where people are coming from. I'm 50-50 on the idea...

... but every time you put more restraints on a coach's ability to do his job, where his reputation and livelihood on the line, you limit the coaches you can get. There is a balancing act there.

Snoopy, you talk about sharing the wealth, but the wealth has to agree to this and so far it's not done so. Everyone says it should happen but no one seems to know how to get it to happen. Until someone works out how to do it, I'd hate to see it as a building block of Irish rugby strategy, and if Nucifora is building off that happening I think his plans won't work.

The Irish rugby system is better than some give it credit for. It's not perfect, but nothing is, and I reckon it'd be a lot easier to take on the wrong path than the right path. I'm not sure how much needs to change... and to what extent the change wouldn't be best managed by telling the big 3 they'll be giving 10 U-23 players 400 minutes a season. I mean, this is the real big issue right? Young players not getting their chance quick enough. So why not just cut right to the quick and tell them they will give the young players their chance. Fiddling with NIQs and trying to persuade players to leave their home province seems window dressing when they can go just for that - and if the big 3 don't have 10 young players worth that much Pro 12 time each, then the big problem is the academy. In fact, 10 might be a bit low.


Finally - the Ulster lock thing. FvdM is out of contract next season. That would leave us with 3 front line locks, 1 of whom will be an Ireland fixture and 1 of whom has a decent chance of plenty of games there. That's not really enough (please don't make me include Stevenson and Browne) although we could probably make do. Still, it's a reasonable enough place to get an NIQ lock in. If we're going to, why not get the best we can? I fully agree with the IRFU turning down a request for a project lock in their late 20s, but if we do end up signing a NIQ lock, and it ends up being a lesser player than Romano (which is basically guaranteed), I'll be ******.

Sure, I'd rather Ulster signed two NIQ back-rows, but I don't think it's unreasonable for Ulster to target a lock - there is a use for one and a desire for one. How heavily does this impinge on Ireland? Maybe not ideal, maybe not noticeable (Tuohy's probably never going to be more than fringe but O'Connor does need pushing and long term is part of the succession (you'd hope)). Maybe they should have told Ulster they could sign Romano, but they'd be starting 2 IQ locks for a minimum of two SDC group games and... I dunno, six Pro 12 games.

It does strike me as utterly absurd that the provinces are finding out whether these players are acceptable after they've put in the leg work and made approaches though mind. Why can't Nucifora say "No big name tight five forwards, no projects over 26 etc.etc." ahead of time?


edit: Has to be pointed out there's a lot of what ifs here so far mind and really, we should wait to see the end of the season and the signings before saying too much, if we're going to be fair.