NZ vs Wales - June 2016

[Thingimubob]

Not completely sure Halfpenny's knee is anywhere near ready for international rugby, so no surprise at all that he's been left out! Pretty sure he had to have a second op the other day?

As others have said, really disappointed that a few promising players have been left out. Notably Nicky Smith, Ellis Jenkins and Sam Davies.

I'm assuming James Davies must be on board with the Olympics, because I can't see any other reason why you wouldn't bring him.

Really not sure on James King either. Assuming he's mostly there as 8 cover and he has looked good in the last few games I've seen (not seen the Ulster game though), just always felt he's never impressed when picked for Wales. Even looked surprisingly average against Uruguay. Would much prefer Jenkins or Navidi to be in the squad as they've looked consistently class all season.

 

[j'nuh]

My selection pick would be -:
1 - Samson Lee
3 - Tomos Francis

Eh? Evans had a cracking time in the Six Nations, easily your best front rower, currently vying with McGrath for the Lions 1 shirt, and you're dropping him to move Lee out of position, and starting Francis? Has something been happening in the Pro12 that I don't know about?

Definitely wouldn't start Francis against NZ. I know he's been getting fitter, but he's definitely not starting-against-the-All-Blacks-fit yet. Doesn't help that he's been banned for the last 8 weeks. Not that Lee is an exemplary specimen of the physical side of the game either, but he's ahead of Francis!

 

[Maverick1987]

Eh? Evans had a cracking time in the Six Nations, easily your best front rower, currently vying with McGrath for the Lions 1 shirt, and you're dropping him to move Lee out of position, and starting Francis? Has something been happening in the Pro12 that I don't know about?

Definitely wouldn't start Francis against NZ. I know he's been getting fitter, but he's definitely not starting-against-the-All-Blacks-fit yet. Doesn't help that he's been banned for the last 8 weeks. Not that Lee is an exemplary specimen of the physical side of the game either, but he's ahead of Francis!

Does Lee even play LH ??

 

[Ospreylian]

I'm personally disappointed not to see Sam Davies included, who has been superb all season and a real attacking threat. Hanno Dirksen could have been a real option instead of Eli Walker as well, I think Dirksen is too good to ignore anymore and Walker is still looking like he needs to work on certain aspects of his game.

Anyhow, this would be my 23 for the first test:

Evans, Owens, Lee, Charteris, Awj, Moriarty, Warburton, Faletau; Webb, Biggar, North, Roberts, S Williams, L Williams, Anscombe

Bench: Jenkins, Francis, Baldwin, Ball, King, G Davies, Priestland, M Morgan/Amos/J Davies


And this is my midweek 23:

P James, Baldwin, Jones, B Davies, Ball, Lydiate, Turnbull, King; G Davies, M Morgan, Walker, J Davies, T Morgan, Amos, Priestland

Bench: Evans, Francis, Dacey, Charteris, Moriarty, L Williams, Anscombe, T James

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Some pretty tough calls made by Gatland, not an easy decision. However correct call has been made on Halfpenny, yes he is on the standby list ... however he's not played any rugby, be risky to play against the best side in the world. In regards to Nicky Smith, tough call yes, would have had him instead of James, yet I agree that his scrummaging is much to be desired however he should have gone. Sam Davies is unlucky, played very well yet who would you drop for him? Maybe a run out mid week from the bench against the Chiefs would have been the ideal opportunity. Ellis Jenkins, regardless of what people tell me deserved a chance, I don't buy the Gatland nonsense of "we have others who can play 7", Moriarty and King are not 7s. Moriarty might have played 7 against Italy when he came on, but on that day Italy were dire, anyone could have looked world class at 7 that day. James Davies is clearly off to the Olympics, good for him.

@valley commando Dunno if you are on the same wave length but some of your selections are questionable. Entitled to your opinion but I really lost interest when you selected two tight heads as your starting props, and as much as a Blues fan I am, Ken Owens is clearly above Dacey for me in the hooking stakes. No Roberts at 12 is an issue for me, would happily like to see Williams partner him but not Williams at the expense of Roberts.

@johnmac99 Can't see why that would be such an issue, he's played far more regional rugby this season than he ever has.


On a side note, surely this should be in the NZ vs Wales thread?

 

[dullonien]

Agree with most of that Cymro.

Pre injury, I thought Nicky Smith was looking very good, scrummaging and all. I had far greater reservations about Rob Evans' scrummaging, but he's really come along in that department this season. In some ways I think Nicky having a good pre-season will be the best thing for him, and he can take over from James next season when his form has fully returned.

Re Sam Davies, I'd have still taken him ahead of Priestland. I can't see Priestland getting a squad place ahead of Roberts, North or Faletau next season when Gats will only be able to select 3 wild cards, so imo Davies should have been involved now, with a nice midweek game to earn his debut. For me Biggar and Anscombe are 1 & 2, and next season Davies and hopefully Patchell will start to really push them.

100% agree with your assessment re openside. Ellis Jenkins looks class, and hopefully James Davies will be with the 7's. The others in the squad will struggle against NZ. Hopefully Warbs will be fully recovered. He was playing some of his best rugby in a Blues shirt before his injury , so it's a shame he picked up yet another injury. As long as he is fully fit, I don't think his months rest should affect him too much.

The one bit a do slightly disagree with you on is Roberts. He's had a good season for Wales, been such a defensive rock. But I would prefer if we placed a higher emphasis on attack than defense. Neither Scott Williams or Jon Davies are weak defensively, but imo they offer so much more in attack. Scott Williams' lack of game time is the big sticking point, so I would completely understand if Gats starts with Roberts and Davies.

Next season will be more interesting , especially if Scott and JD2 click for the Scarlets.

 

[j'nuh]

The one bit a do slightly disagree with you on is Roberts. He's had a good season for Wales, been such a defensive rock. But I would prefer if we placed a higher emphasis on attack than defense. Neither Scott Williams or Jon Davies are weak defensively, but imo they offer so much more in attack. Scott Williams' lack of game time is the big sticking point, so I would completely understand if Gats starts with Roberts and Davies.

I feel we've seen more from Roberts in attack especially in the last Six Nations, than from Davies.

tbh, I don't think it makes much of a difference who you play in the centres of the three, it's the coaching of attack that is letting you down. Over-resourced breakdowns and predictable straight-line attack patterns, very rarely using dummy runners and some poor decision-making running through half-backs and centres (often failing to notice overlaps) is doing the damage. England looked better in attack, despite having Farrell at 12!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GMcOR1GEmE

 

[dullonien]

I feel we've seen more from Roberts in attack especially in the last Six Nations, than from Davies.

tbh, I don't think it makes much of a difference who you play in the centres of the three, it's the coaching of attack that is letting you down. Over-resourced breakdowns and predictable straight-line attack patterns, very rarely using dummy runners and some poor decision-making running through half-backs and centres (often failing to notice overlaps) is doing the damage. England looked better in attack, despite having Farrell at 12!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GMcOR1GEmE

I do agree with you. We should be creating and scoring more try's regardless of personnel. But there's no denying that Scott Williams has more in his attacking locker than roberts, his pace can be such an asset. Judgement day showed that, after 7 months out, he came back and ripped the dragons to shreds. His passing and vision have also improved massively on his early days when he was better known for butchering opportunities by not giving the pass, or poorly executing one.

I agree that Davies wasn't at his best in the 6 nations, but we all know what he's capable of in attack. Again his big benefit over Roberts is his pace. Give him some space and a sniff of the try line, and he's lethal. His hands are still poor on occasion though, with far too many passes off his left hand ending in touch, which is the reason he's better suited at 13.

For me, a Scott Williams and Jon Davies midfield has a higher ceiling that one which includes Roberts. Slot Gareth Anscombe, Sam Davies or Rhys Patchell in at 10 alongside them and Rhys Webb, and that's a very potent attaching axis.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I do agree with you. We should be creating and scoring more try's regardless of personnel. But there's no denying that Scott Williams has more in his attacking locker than roberts, his pace can be such an asset. Judgement day showed that, after 7 months out, he came back and ripped the dragons to shreds. His passing and vision have also improved massively on his early days when he was better known for butchering opportunities by not giving the pass, or poorly executing one.

I agree that Davies wasn't at his best in the 6 nations, but we all know what he's capable of in attack. Again his big benefit over Roberts is his pace. Give him some space and a sniff of the try line, and he's lethal. His hands are still poor on occasion though, with far too many passes off his left hand ending in touch, which is the reason he's better suited at 13.

For me, a Scott Williams and Jon Davies midfield has a higher ceiling that one which includes Roberts. Slot Gareth Anscombe, Sam Davies or Rhys Patchell in at 10 alongside them and Rhys Webb, and that's a very potent attaching axis.

I like a lot of your thinking here, although I rate Roberts highly and I'm a lot less impressed by JD than a lot of people to be honest. If I was Wales, I'd be looking to get Williams into that midfield somehow - but he's more 12 than 13 for me, but I don't want to drop JR. It's a conundrum - but as a pair they are very one dimensional and that contributes massively to your problems in attack.

All that aside, can you see Gatland dropping either of them? I can't

 

[Ospreylian]

I like a lot of your thinking here, although I rate Roberts highly and I'm a lot less impressed by JD than a lot of people to be honest. If I was Wales, I'd be looking to get Williams into that midfield somehow - but he's more 12 than 13 for me, but I don't want to drop JR. It's a conundrum - but as a pair they are very one dimensional and that contributes massively to your problems in attack.

I'm with you on this. If I had to drop Roberts or Davies to bring in Williams, at the moment it would be Davies on his way out in an instant. He just hasn't shown his top form for Wales for a long time, throwing wild passes in a panic or kicking when it's not the best option in attack. Scott came back for one game after being out for ages and possibly was the best player of the whole two matches on judgement day. He showed a clinical and ruthless edge that not many Welsh backs possess these days, and that's a quality that is crucial when you're up against the Southern Hemisphere. Roberts is far too important to the Welsh defence to be dropped and has impressed in a number of games internationally recently. He gives a lot more in attack these days to be fair on him and does pass and offload a lot more than he used to. Perhaps Williams at 12 and Roberts at 13 could be an option? Get Williams to create the space and Roberts to charge into it?

 

[Every Time Ref]

I'd be wary of moving someone who's always been a 12 to 13 on a whim though. The positions are not so similar that you can easily switch from one to the other without problems.

Defence in particular is very different. Remember beating us in the World Cup? (I'm sure you do...) If you recall, Brad Barrit came in for a lot of criticism for his defence at 13. This, for all his attacking uselessness, is without doubt the best English defensive IC by a distance, completely at sea when asked to play at OC. They are different positions. The decisions are different, the timing's different and the spacing's different. Excellence at defending one channel does not necessarily translate to even competence in defending the other.

 

[dullonien]

What will probably make this more interesting is that it will probably be Williams and Tyler Morgan lining up against england, as I can't see Roberts being released due to PRL policy, and Davies will be involved with playoffs for Clermont.

That combination has some real potential as well. Morgan has the pace to exploit any opportunities Williams creates inside of him. He's still raw, but he reminds me of someone like Jamie Robinson who was ideally suited to the outside center berth.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Can't see us dropping Roberts, very surprised it is even being talked about. He can pass, offload etc. Has shown it for Wales and Quins this season.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Wales' game plan does revolve a lot around JR. Stop JR getting over that gain line and teams stop Wales. Haven't seen JR offload that much, if ever, for Wales.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Wales' game plan does revolve a lot around JR. Stop JR getting over that gain line and teams stop Wales. Haven't seen JR offload that much, if ever, for Wales.

I think this is a little overstated.

There's a correlation between teams being able to stop Roberts and winning, but there's also a correlation between teams having a strong aggressive defence that can nullify strong carrying and teams beating Wales.

 

[psychic duck]

Can't see us dropping Roberts, very surprised it is even being talked about. He can pass, offload etc. Has shown it for Wales and Quins this season.

Agree. Totally nuts to suggest dropping one of the most dependable players we have and one of the leaders of the team.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I think this is a little overstated.

There's a correlation between teams being able to stop Roberts and winning, but there's also a correlation between teams having a strong aggressive defence that can nullify strong carrying and teams beating Wales.

I don't. JR is key to Warrenball.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Wakes would certainly be a very different team without a big crashball 12, I can't see Gatland altering the gameplan and there's no one I can think of who could comfortably step into Roberts' shoes in that role. Roberts-Williams could work as it doesn't involve radically changing the game plan while giving an extra dimension to the wide attack which it desperately needs.

What's Williams' defence like? I haven't seen him play very much to be honest.

 

[welshglory]

Why does Turnbull keep getting selected?... Yes he's been in decent form and he covers a lot of positions but he's never had a good game, never mind world class one for Wales. Lewis Evans, Josh Navidi, Ellis Jenkins, James Davies (unless he's with the 7's), It's probably one of these behind the scenes decisions due to his work ethic in training and leadership or something of that matter.

I still feel we need a second ball player in the team somewhere, especially considering Biggar isn't really a playmaker. That's what we've missed since Shane and Henson have been missing from the team.

I just can't see us regularly beating the Southern Hemisphere without playing a more attacking based game. I do concede that our depth is without doubt the biggest issue and you get the sense that Gatland has tailored the gameplan to that. Another issue is that our forwards skills are pretty terrible aside from Tips and Faletau.

I wish Gatland would employ a different attack coach or skills coach at least to try and upskill everyone in the team to their potential. Does anyone know what Howley actually does? Even the Allblacks upskilled their players even though their skills are probably 5x better than everyone else already. Gat's can complain all he wants about club rugby in the Northern Hemisphere but Argentina managed to change the way they play the game before they joined Super rugby.

 

[Shaggy]

Agree. Totally nuts to suggest dropping one of the most dependable players we have and one of the leaders of the team.

Yup, I agree ... and go further and suggest not to change either of the midfielders; two experienced players that have played together on multiple occasions, vs a new All Black pairing is a no brainer to me.