Paddy Jackson & Stuart Olding Face Rape Charges

[GarethGriffiths]

https://www.independent.ie/irish-ne...of-alleged-boasting-on-whatsapp-36546885.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-42874775

Not at all good.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Only the prosecution's statement. The texts are scummy but nothing can be said on the case at all before the defence and witnesses make their statements.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Jeeze, that makes for some grim reading.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Yeah really grim reading. However I think a lot of people are jumping the gun a bit, like Alpha Bro says it's just the prosecution statement. Not sure what people expected.

Do the vile texts make it a kind of all-or-nothing case now? I mean, either they were intoxicated to point they really had no idea what they were doing - or they knew exactly what they were doing to her & are essentially boasting about it? If they thought it was "borderline" (hard to define borderline in this case I'm aware) I can't really see them texting those things..

 

[MikeTheNative]

I really think that details from the trial like this shouldn't be released until it is over and a verdict given.

 

[big ginger 8]

I really think that details from the trial like this shouldn't be released until it is over and a verdict given.

Absolutely agree. In Ireland they wouldn't even have have their names released unless a guilty verdict was returned for a case of this nature.
Somewhat defeats the notion of innocent until proven guilty as even if found not guilty their reputations will be destroyed and potentially their careers.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Absolutely agree. In Ireland they wouldn't even have have their names released unless a guilty verdict was returned for a case of this nature.
Somewhat defeats the notion of innocent until proven guilty as even if found not guilty their reputations will be destroyed and potentially their careers.

I doubt Ulster rugby will want anything to do with them if they're innocent.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I doubt Ulster rugby will want anything to do with them if they're innocent.

Not sure on that really.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Not sure on that really.

With their hugely religious fan base I don't see it. They've already said they'll be doing their own investigation into it if they're found innocent.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

With their hugely religious fan base I don't see it. They've already said they'll be doing their own investigation into it if they're found innocent.

Forgot which club and area we where talking about.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

With their hugely religious fan base I don't see it. They've already said they'll be doing their own investigation into it if they're found innocent.

I suspect even in the event of hypothetical evidence indicating this was consensual that these boys will hang for promiscuity for the self same reason infront of a jury of their peers. How does talk of threesomes and rough sex play with 40+ year old religious housewives? I think few would even entertain the notion that a young lady would engage willingly in such things - such is the change in social and sexual norms over the generations.

Stronger evidence than I anticipated and even if consensual they come off looking a bit like animals for leaving the lass with injuries (particularly if the lass was a stranger). The texts are irrelevant in terms of evidence but just play to the jury. Guys talking about pleasurable sexual encounters is nothing new.

If they can't find anything on her sexual history to indicate similar conduct and the third party woman that walked in on the threesome can't speak to it being consensual then they should be toast. Unless another of the female witnesses throws her own reputation under the bus and says the atmosphere was of a free-for-all sex party - which no self respecting young lady would ever say in such a high profile environment.

Good luck to any jury deciding if it was consensual and the players should walk free, or if no consent was given and they should get 5-7 years.

Certainly a distinct case and not one that I could draw parrallels with the Ched Evans case in terms of scarcity of evidence. So I'll put my hobby horse in the cupboard and wish the Northern Irish legal system the best of luck. As a defence solicitor once informed me, trials are in no way about establishing the truth - it's about winning a case.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I hope justice is done however that plays out. The whatsapp messages are disgusting but don't infer guilt.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I really think that details from the trial like this shouldn't be released until it is over and a verdict given.

Agree totally. And the whole anonymity of accuser and naming of those in the dock just doesn't feel right. But this is all phenomenally complicated.

Whatever the outcome, hopefully the case will have been put together more assiduously than those on the mainland which have collapsed recently. Don't get me wrong, anyone guilty of these offences deserves what's coming, but what some of those lads have gone through just wasn't right.

 

[die_mole]

With their hugely religious fan base I don't see it. They've already said they'll be doing their own investigation into it if they're found innocent.

i thought religious folk usually rallied around people who do this type of thing... or is that just in america?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

i thought religious folk usually rallied around people who do this type of thing... or is that just in america?

They're different up there! A lot of rumours that McCall was sacked because he liked drinking a wee bit too much. A lot of rumours in Irish rugby that this sort of thing can put a player's international position in jeopardy too.

As for the case I totally agree about anonymity in criminal cases, it's like that for the most part here. (In the south) Nothing in the prosecutions account can prove guilt when denied. The female witness is probably what the case will come down to, it'll be interesting to hear the defence's "facts"!

 

[Thingimubob]

I suspect even in the event of hypothetical evidence indicating this was consensual that these boys will hang for promiscuity for the self same reason infront of a jury of their peers. How does talk of threesomes and rough sex play with 40+ year old religious housewives? I think few would even entertain the notion that a young lady would engage willingly in such things - such is the change in social and sexual norms over the generations.

Stronger evidence than I anticipated and even if consensual they come off looking a bit like animals for leaving the lass with injuries (particularly if the lass was a stranger). The texts are irrelevant in terms of evidence but just play to the jury. Guys talking about pleasurable sexual encounters is nothing new.

If they can't find anything on her sexual history to indicate similar conduct and the third party woman that walked in on the threesome can't speak to it being consensual then they should be toast. Unless another of the female witnesses throws her own reputation under the bus and says the atmosphere was of a free-for-all sex party - which no self respecting young lady would ever say in such a high profile environment.

Good luck to any jury deciding if it was consensual and the players should walk free, or if no consent was given and they should get 5-7 years.

Certainly a distinct case and not one that I could draw parrallels with the Ched Evans case in terms of scarcity of evidence. So I'll put my hobby horse in the cupboard and wish the Northern Irish legal system the best of luck. As a defence solicitor once informed me, trials are in no way about establishing the truth - it's about winning a case.

There does indeed seem to be a lot more evidence and potential witnesses for this one than the Ched Evans case. For me though, past sexual history should not come into play, and it still winds me up that that's (more or less) what got Evans' conviction overturned in the end. Just because someone was up for a threesome once, it doesn't mean that they're down for it all the time, every time - (Just for clarification not saying you believe otherwise Bruce, just venting a personal bugbear about the reaction to these sorts of trials, and in particular the tactics the defense use.)

Not saying they're definitely guilty anyway, but the evidence is not looking good so far. I think Jackson came out and said he only had oral sex with her, though that doesn't explain the significant bruising and the 1cm cut they found inside her... If they are found guilty I hope the book is thrown at them as hard as possible.

 

[Amiga500]

I'm not religious. But I don't want them back*.

Doesn't matter what the jury decide - in the professional era, players harp on about how short a career it can be etc etc to justify wages - well then for that same short career I expect them to act as ambassadors for the sport and to take care of themselves.

Not get completely f**ked up on nights out then f**k over someone else.



*There is a problem within Ulster. This is likely one very small part of it. A bunch of fellas that have achieved very little in the professional game have had BBC NI blow smoke up their ass every week - so they end up getting more than a bit arrogant.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

I'm not religious. But I don't want them back*.

Doesn't matter what the jury decide - in the professional era, players harp on about how short a career it can be etc etc to justify wages - well then for that same short career I expect them to act as ambassadors for the sport and to take care of themselves.

Not get completely f**ked up on nights out then f**k over someone else.



*There is a problem within Ulster. This is likely one very small part of it. A bunch of fellas that have achieved very little in the professional game have had BBC NI blow smoke up their ass every week - so they end up getting more than a bit arrogant.

Agreed, and from what I've heard from people who know them both from nights out, a bit arrogant is a vast understatement.

 

[TommiG88]

There does indeed seem to be a lot more evidence and potential witnesses for this one than the Ched Evans case. For me though, past sexual history should not come into play, and it still winds me up that that's (more or less) what got Evans' conviction overturned in the end. Just because someone was up for a threesome once, it doesn't mean that they're down for it all the time, every time - (Just for clarification not saying you believe otherwise Bruce, just venting a personal bugbear about the reaction to these sorts of trials, and in particular the tactics the defense use.)

Not saying they're definitely guilty anyway, but the evidence is not looking good so far. I think Jackson came out and said he only had oral sex with her, though that doesn't explain the significant bruising and the 1cm cut they found inside her... If they are found guilty I hope the book is thrown at them as hard as possible.

The Ched Evans case was over turned due to the indifferent stories, with some evidence ignored until the retrial. The victims story didn't add up with witnesses statements.

 

[munstermuffin]

I'm not religious. But I don't want them back*.

Doesn't matter what the jury decide - in the professional era, players harp on about how short a career it can be etc etc to justify wages - well then for that same short career I expect them to act as ambassadors for the sport and to take care of themselves.

Not get completely f**ked up on nights out then f**k over someone else.



*There is a problem within Ulster. This is likely one very small part of it. A bunch of fellas that have achieved very little in the professional game have had BBC NI blow smoke up their ass every week - so they end up getting more than a bit arrogant.

I thing regardless of Verdict they won't play again for Ulster. Not guilty will mean straight out on plane to England or France