Petition to force props to get rid of slippery jerseys

[Gavin]

Rubbish, The size and shapes of props has hardly changed at all. Scrummaging used to be the basis of the whole game now its just an annoyance that everyone wants over and done with, dont see how thats going forward or evolving.

You honestly are saying that the size of rugby players hasn't changed? The fact is that, especially in the forwards, players have gotten much bigger and stronger in most cases. With the increase in size there had to be a way to counter it and this was achieved by the perfection of specific techniques.

 

[big ginger 8]

People seem to forget its the best part of 2 tonnes coming at each other. Which would seem to suggest get rid of the hit but personnaly I'd hated that for playing myself and watching the old scrums compared to now seem stupid.

 

[big ginger 8]

Wilson Whineray - All Blacks - 6ft0, 14st11
Tony Woodcock - All Blacks - 6ft0, 18st8


Fran Cotton - England - 6ft2, 16st7
Alex Corbisiero - England - 6ft1, 18st8


Ray Prosser - Wales - 6ft0, 15st4
Adam Jones - Wales - 6ft0, 20st0

Props around 15 stone amazing I'm that and just turned 16.

 

[Saintjay]

I know this will offend purists of the game but I'm not really bothered by scrumhalves throwing the ball in crooked. My reasoning is that a scrum occurs due to one team knocking the ball on or for a forward pass. The ensuing scrum only came about because they were inadequate in possession and as such they should cede possession to their opponents. By all means allow them to push once the ball is put in affecting the quality of ball of their opponents but I don't think they should be entitled to a 50:50 shot at getting the ball back.

Just my 2 cents.

I think it is because the game is still ment to be a contest and it would become one sided. At the end of the day putting it in not straight is cheating.

Based on the theory teams should not have a 50 50 shot at winning the ball back. What happens when you kick a penalty into touch for an attacking line out etc.
The other team in theory have a 50 50 shot at winning the ball back after giving away a penalty.

If you go that way you might as well let the ball be thrown not straight into the line out either as it is unfare that the other team get a shot at winning the ball back.

So if you want uncontested scrums go watch league.

 

[dullonien]

Even playing at prop, second guessing the referees rhythm for the engagement is crucial in getting the advantage on the 'hit'. Also the rhythm will vary from referee to referee, as someone has mentioned and this causes problem as every referee has his own interpretation of the engagement rule and rhythm. Referee's with front row experience tend to speed it up whilst those not familiar call it slower which means that you are anticipating the 'engage' call.

Do you think that ref's should have a set timing they should keep to? I've pondered this in the past. If there was a set time between the touch and engage commands (3 seconds for example), then all players concerned would know exactly when to engage, instead of having to second-guess the ref. I'm not sure if this would work, but maybe it would be better than what we currently have with some refs takinag an age, and some being quite sensible and quick.

 

[McTallshort]

You honestly are saying that the size of rugby players hasn't changed? The fact is that, especially in the forwards, players have gotten much bigger and stronger in most cases. With the increase in size there had to be a way to counter it and this was achieved by the perfection of specific techniques.

No Im saying props have not changed, they may be able to get round the pitch quicker than they once did but props are very much as they were 20 years ago. But you said the scrum has got better when at pro level its become a bore.

 

[dullonien]

I think Gavin is saying that scrums have got more powerful, which is almost certainly correct considering the increase in size of pretty much every forward. Pretty much every player is between 3 and 5 stone heavier than they were, and all of that is muscle nowerdays. I agree that the scum is more of a mess though, and it's obvious everyone feels the same.

 

[McTallshort]

I think Gavin is saying that scrums have got more powerful, which is almost certainly correct considering the increase in size of pretty much every forward. Pretty much every player is between 3 and 5 stone heavier than they were, and all of that is muscle nowerdays. I agree that the scum is more of a mess though, and it's obvious everyone feels the same.

OK I was just thinking of the front row but if the forwards are so much bigger why do we allow the "hit". You used to bind together then no one was allowed to push until the ball went it. That must surely be better than what we have now?

 

[Gavin]

No Im saying props have not changed, they may be able to get round the pitch quicker than they once did but props are very much as they were 20 years ago. But you said the scrum has got better when at pro level its become a bore.

Dullonien is correct when I mean that the scrums have gotten more powerful. First we should consider the sizes of some of the props who have played the game; as the World Cup is over I feel a good comparison can be made between the starting props for New Zealand from the 1987, 1995 and 2011 World Cup Finals.

1987 - Steven McDowall - 102kg, 1.82m
John Drake - 99kg, 1.83m
1995 - Olo Brown - 100kg, 1.85m
Craig Dowd - 114kg, 1.91m
2011 - Tony Woodcock - 119kg, 1.84m
Owen Franks - 119kg, 1.85m

There is a clear increase in the size of props in the 20 year span you mention, perhaps I could make the information more accurate by looking at other international props and comparing, but at the moment I really can't be bothered. I would also like to point out that a certain Richard Kahui who started on the wing in that 2011 final was 101kg which makes him heavier than one of the 1987 props and slightly lighter than the other.

In terms of the hit I believe it is there to make it more of a contest and the success relies more on the technique of the props in the scrum

 

[dullonien]

In terms of the hit I believe it is there to make it more of a contest and the success relies more on the technique of the props in the scrum

I'd argue the complete oposite. If the hit were eliminated, and all four props are starting from a standstill, then it would favour the better scrummagers, i.e. the ones with better technique and power. At the moment, a weaker scrummager can prevail in some scrums by simply getting the jump on his oposition. As Cymro has pointed out, things may be a little more complicated , and there's more to consider, but I certainly think the IRB should look into getting rid of the hit, maybe carry out some tests involving professional players.

 

[McTallshort]

I'd argue the complete oposite. If the hit were eliminated, and all four props are starting from a standstill, then it would favour the better scrummagers, i.e. the ones with better technique and power. At the moment, a weaker scrummager can prevail in some scrums by simply getting the jump on his oposition. As Cymro has pointed out, things may be a little more complicated , and there's more to consider, but I certainly think the IRB should look into getting rid of the hit, maybe carry out some tests involving professional players.

completely agree! how anyone can say scrums are currently a better contest that relies or creates better technique must be watching a different game or has never played the game

 

[welshglory]

completely agree! how anyone can say scrums are currently a better contest that relies or creates better technique must be watching a different game or has never played the game

I think Gavin was saying the hit was initially brought in to create a better contest. Not that it is in a better state now. Although I don't really know when the hit was introduced but from watching clips of the 1987 world cup final the scums looked frankly pathetic.
Calm down and don't jump the gun so quickly.

 

[Daniel Richards]

. Previously, the two front rows would come together and bind, followed by the second rows and finally the back rows, finally when the ball was fed the pushign began. If we went back som something like this, then it would allow time for the props to get a propper bind (and for the ref to check the binding), it would decrease the impact, it would allow time for the ref to propperly check in feed, and it would give genuine advantage to the stronger scrummaging props.

Thats the best way , that's how I learnt to scrummage , it's not rocket science .

 

[RetiredRog]

The solution is easy.
The props shirts should be different to the other players, simply sew a small handle into the binding sleeve...there endeth the problem

 

[SelimNiai]

The solution is easy.
The props shirts should be different to the other players, simply sew a small handle into the binding sleeve...there endeth the problem

It doesn't, that handle can easily be grabbed by tacklers, especially beaten defenders who try to grab any part of the player

 

[Aedaphon]

It doesn't, that handle can easily be grabbed by tacklers, especially beaten defenders who try to grab any part of the player

How often do you get beaten on the outside by props?

 

[Me 1]

How often do you get beaten on the outside by props?

:lol:

 

[Aedaphon]

Ok so this is from a hooker but still...

0:43 onwards

 

[big ginger 8]

http://youtu.be/UZCa54qricA from round 1:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL3512C6F81328DCDF&feature=player_detailpage&v=tpSNtdTaaIA

 

[saderista]

. Previously, the two front rows would come together and bind, followed by the second rows and finally the back rows, finally when the ball was fed the pushign began. If we went back som something like this, then it would allow time for the props to get a propper bind (and for the ref to check the binding), it would decrease the impact, it would allow time for the ref to propperly check in feed, and it would give genuine advantage to the stronger scrummaging props.

Thats the best way , that's how I learnt to scrummage , it's not rocket science .

Very good idea, send an email off to POB right away!