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Players from each country not in their domestic league

saulan

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Saw this in a Rugby365 comments section and thought it may be an interesting thing to discuss (Thanks to Baylion if you read this). His methodology was going through the team's Wikipedia pages and looking at the nationality of each player in the squad (Given this is Wikipedia, there will be some innaccuracy, but in this situation I think this is likely to give a fair sense of who is where).

Data only reflects players in Japan Top League, Pro 14 (excluding Cheetahs and Kings for SA), Top 14 and AP.

Unsurprising that SA tops the list, but interesting to see how close NZ follows behind. I'm interested in that Japan number though because I know a number of players from SA who play in Japan also play locally so it isn't really a loss, is that the case for other countries as well?
 
i think we've had two MLR players signed overseas already... hopefully at the end of the season our better players can get picked up

would love to us at with at least 40 guys playing in an overseas professional set up (with a decent distribution of positions, not just all props)
 
i think we've had two MLR players signed overseas already... hopefully at the end of the season our better players can get picked up

would love to us at with at least 40 guys playing in an overseas professional set up (with a decent distribution of positions, not just all props)
I would have thought that US fans would rather keep them in the league or is it too early days to make a difference and the national side should be the focus? I watched the first MLR match on FB, which was a great milestone for USA rugby, however as expected the quality was a bit meh. No offence to the players. I haven't watched another since. If the quality was better then I would probably watch a game here and there just like I do with other international leagues.
 
this cant be squad players...NZ famously doesn't pick players playing overseas, so it mush just be the nationality of players playing in different leagues and i thought it was pretty common knowledge NZ exports a ot of talent
 
this cant be squad players...NZ famously doesn't pick players playing overseas, so it mush just be the nationality of players playing in different leagues and i thought it was pretty common knowledge NZ exports a ot of talent
It's foreign nationals playing in those leagues.

But it's not perfect way to measure it.

There will be about an extra 40
NZers in those leagues but their Wikipedia nationality will not be NZ. Some will appear as foreigners in this table (but Samoan, Tongan, Australian). Some won't appear in that table at all as they are listed now as IRB nationals of that domestic league.

Eg Bundee Aki & Jared Payne would be domestic Irish as per wiki, Veainu, Tuitavake, Tameifuna as Tongans in Eng/Fra, Vui as Samoan in England, Anscombe domestic Welsh, Mike Harris Australian in France, Budd domestic Italian, Hasketh, Broadhurst domestic Japanese etc etc.

By the same token, on the minus side, there will be a some like David Smith, Frank Halai, Fekitoa who have NZ Wikipedia/IRB nationality who aren't really NZers.
 
I would have thought that US fans would rather keep them in the league or is it too early days to make a difference and the national side should be the focus? I watched the first MLR match on FB, which was a great milestone for USA rugby, however as expected the quality was a bit meh. No offence to the players. I haven't watched another since. If the quality was better then I would probably watch a game here and there just like I do with other international leagues.
Part of its national team part of its just rooting for the guys themselves.

MLR doesn't have the facilities or the coaching needed for world class athletes yet and if these guys want to be on their way to being world class they need to be in overseas set ups.

MLR is great for getting guys into a bare minimum professional set up. The more players that leave for overseas opens up more roster spots for guys here.

It also gives American rugby credibility if we show we can produce guys contributing in tier 1 competitions.

On the national team part of it there's a theory going around that our soccer team fell apart when all our best players came back to MLS they lost their spark. When you have a comfortable spot in the starting in your domestic league you don't compete day in day out. We need our best players having to compete for spots every day instead of just cruising into the XV every game.

When MLR can provide the best facilities, coaches, and competition, then we can start to have our best players play there.
 
It's foreign nationals playing in those leagues.

But it's not perfect way to measure it.

There will be about an extra 40
NZers in those leagues but their Wikipedia nationality will not be NZ. Some will appear as foreigners in this table (but Samoan, Tongan, Australian). Some won't appear in that table at all as they are listed now as IRB nationals of that domestic league.

Eg Bundee Aki & Jared Payne would be domestic Irish as per wiki, Veainu, Tuitavake, Tameifuna as Tongans in Eng/Fra, Vui as Samoan in England, Anscombe domestic Welsh, Mike Harris Australian in France, Budd domestic Italian, Hasketh, Broadhurst domestic Japanese etc etc.

By the same token, on the minus side, there will be a some like David Smith, Frank Halai, Fekitoa who have NZ Wikipedia/IRB nationality who aren't really NZers.

Exactly, how would you classify Tim Nanai-Williams, for example, if he plays overseas again ... I know this isn't the main point, but interesting, none the less.

On the main point, I think the use of overseas players, from a development/the good of the game in the country Concerned point of view, it really depends on how these oversea players are used, and whether they appear in such numbers, that they block the path of the home grown talent. Lifting the standard of play and putting bums on seats is one thing (as is winning the competition at all costs), but it shouldnt come at the cost of depriving local players of opportunities
 
Exactly, how would you classify Tim Nanai-Williams, for example, if he plays overseas again ... I know this isn't the main point, but interesting, none the less.

On the main point, I think the use of overseas players, from a development/the good of the game in the country Concerned point of view, it really depends on how these oversea players are used, and whether they appear in such numbers, that they block the path of the home grown talent. Lifting the standard of play and putting bums on seats is one thing (as is winning the competition at all costs), but it shouldnt come at the cost of depriving local players of opportunities
TNW would be / is classified as Samoan.

IIRC correctly if you look at club squads on wiki, they have the nationality column showing their flag. That nationality is based on thier WR nationality status. I guess some anorak updates them when a Nafi Tuitavake or TNW changes nationality.

It seems to based on
1. who they have played full international level for (15s or 7s)
2. If they aren't full internationals, who they have played international youth level for .
3. If neither of those, then where they're born.

So looking at NPC squads; Tony Lamborn is American based on being a full USA international, Chase Tiatia is Samoan based on being a former Samoa U20 rep.

But there must be individuals creating and then updating those statuses on wiki.
 
IIRC correctly if you look at club squads on wiki, they have the nationality column showing their flag. That nationality is based on thier WR nationality status. I guess some anorak updates them when a Nafi Tuitavake or TNW changes nationality.

But there must be individuals creating and then updating those statuses on wiki.

This is correct, I should have made the ***le of the thread more clearly along the lines of "Players in NH leagues not playing in their WR nationality domestic league" Not in their domestic league is misleading since you have players born in one country, raised in another and playing in a third based on ancestry. There are definitely people on Wiki updating these things as they change nationality, but I would imagine there would be some human error based on delays of updates in there.

Out of your knowledge, do New Zealanders in the Japanese league also play in the NPC and Super Rugby, or only a marginal few?
 
This is correct, I should have made the ***le of the thread more clearly along the lines of "Players in NH leagues not playing in their WR nationality domestic league" Not in their domestic league is misleading since you have players born in one country, raised in another and playing in a third based on ancestry. There are definitely people on Wiki updating these things as they change nationality, but I would imagine there would be some human error based on delays of updates in there.

Out of your knowledge, do New Zealanders in the Japanese league also play in the NPC and Super Rugby, or only a marginal few?

I'm interested to see just how accurate that graph really is. I think another thing to consider is a lot of guys have already had long illustrious careers, and has since retired from international rugby and now just playing for club and making money, like Dan Carter for example...
 
I'm interested to see just how accurate that graph really is. I think another thing to consider is a lot of guys have already had long illustrious careers, and has since retired from international rugby and now just playing for club and making money, like Dan Carter for example...

Sure, that would definitely be something that would be interesting to see (the dynamics of players in these leagues).

My gut feel is that most that are there from New Zealand are older players who either had All Black careers, or have decided they aren't going to make the All Blacks consistently after a decent stint in their home league (usually above the age of 25), and are now looking to make some extra cash in their careers.

I feel like the South African situation was that a number of years ago, but now there is another subset of players in their prime going over to get cash very early on in their careers because of the huge gap in funds (looking at players like Steven Kitshoff, Paul Willemse and Johan Goosen).

Does this match the perspective of others?
 
Out of your knowledge, do New Zealanders in the Japanese league also play in the NPC and Super Rugby, or only a marginal few?

Generally no, but maybe seeing a bit of it happening now. May be a small trend emerging, I'm think like Richard Buckman.

I just read the other day someone had signed to play in Japan but was returning for SR next season, but can't for the life of me remember who it was ......
 
Sure, that would definitely be something that would be interesting to see (the dynamics of players in these leagues).

My gut feel is that most that are there from New Zealand are older players who either had All Black careers, or have decided they aren't going to make the All Blacks consistently after a decent stint in their home league (usually above the age of 25), and are now looking to make some extra cash in their careers.

I feel like the South African situation was that a number of years ago, but now there is another subset of players in their prime going over to get cash very early on in their careers because of the huge gap in funds (looking at players like Steven Kitshoff, Paul Willemse and Johan Goosen).

Does this match the perspective of others?

And don't forget the project players. Are Josh Strauss, Richard Strauss, CJ Stander, Brad Barrit etc. they part of that list? Were they part of that list before making their debut internationally?
 
This is correct, I should have made the ***le of the thread more clearly along the lines of "Players in NH leagues not playing in their WR nationality domestic league" Not in their domestic league is misleading since you have players born in one country, raised in another and playing in a third based on ancestry. There are definitely people on Wiki updating these things as they change nationality, but I would imagine there would be some human error based on delays of updates in there.
Well, the information in the graph can be read in a few ways.

If you are looking at that you can see how many pro players who represent T2 nations like the PIs get employed in the 2 main European leagues, and note that is a good thing IMO.

You can note the general inter-hemispheric trend, which is accurate.

But if using to assess how much each SANZAAR nation is impacted by an exodus of their talent - when drilling down, from an NZ perspective , it's a bit false as there are god knows how many NZ pro rugby players up there represented under other flags, either not showing up at all in that chart (as NH nationals) or in there but under other SH nationals.
 
I actually did something similar to this a while ago, but just from an NZ perspective. As I was interested to know how many NZ rugby players were playing pro overseas in the top leagues. I just found the spreadsheet I made, it was from Septmeber 2017 - so for the teams in the leagues at that time. Also from Wikipedia.

My number was actually 170 NZ players in those 4 leagues.

My criteria was NZ raised - so it didn't include any players who moved to NZ as adults or on high school scholarships. As for quality - 10 of the players in the Japanese Top League I'd never heard of and didn't have active wikipedia links, so relying on the accuracy of their wiki nationality indicator.

So my guess that there was an extra 40 or so hidden NZ players in the OP spreadsheet is pretty accurate.

My study also went a bit further and I also added up those in Pro D4, Leeds and Bristol (pro teams in the semi-pro Championship) and NZers in Australian SR teams.

There were another 39 in Pro D2 , while some are ex-All Black level - again some I'd never heard of and didn't have active links, just relying on the accuracy of their wiki nationality indicator), 6 in Australia, 8 and Leeds and Bristol.

223 in total.
 

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