Pontypridd continue campaign to ruin regional rugby

[Draggs]

We met with Richard Holland and Phil Davies not long after Phil was appointed,†he said. “It was a very positive meeting. Part of it was they offered to hold two matches at Sardis Road.
“We declined that offer on the grounds of not being given the opportunity before. Let me put that into context. We need to look at the first steps. Although we didn’t take them up on it, we haven’t ruled out staging Blues games in the future.

​

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbyn...to-host-cardiff-blues-matches-91466-31862333/

Yes, lets persist with Valleys Rugby, because we are doing so well with four professional teams right now.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Wait, what?

 

[Draggs]

Good offer from the Blues to bring a high level of rugby to Pontypridd stupidly rejected.

At the end of the day some kids will miss out on the chance to watch their Welsh heroes play thanks to some political bickering from middle aged men in suits.

Didn't the Valleys chance of a professional region the "Celtic Warriors" fold thanks to bickering as well?

Don't know if you read the article, but an open training session in the Valleys was very successful. It's just idiot holdouts who want to bring back the 'good old days' and keep rugby as they have made it out to be in their mind.
The crowd who go on and on about ancient glories and cry whenever a jersey is changed.

Feic, confused about Ponty or what I/PD has said?
If it is Ponty than I cannot help you, nobody knows what they are thinking.

PD, yep, they folded because of naming and every other little issue. Professional rugby was so much easier to set up in Ireland as they already had some sort of border. In Wales they were just drawn up and they hoped people would adapt. Naturally they wouldn't, and now whinge that rugby isn't like it used to be. I have hope that down the line things will change when the primary audience are those that grew up with regional rugby.

 

[smartcooky]

I don't know enough about the Regions v Clubs debate in Welsh rugby to comment knowledgeably, but from this side of the planet, it looks not too dissimilar to what has happened in Argentine rugby in the last few years, with some trying to push them into the professional era, while the "suits" are desperately trying to cling onto the amateur way of doing things; the end result of which neither view holds sway, and its the youngsters and greass roots player who lose out when the game is fubar;

Would that be fair comment?

 

[Draggs]

I don't know enough about the Regions v Clubs debate in Welsh rugby to comment knowledgeably, but from this side of the planet, it looks not too dissimilar to what has happened in Argentine rugby in the last few years, with some trying to push them into the professional era, while the "suits" are desperately trying to cling onto the amateur way of doing things; the end result of which neither view holds sway, and its the youngsters and greass roots player who lose out when the game is fubar;

Would that be fair comment?

I wouldn't say the suits (if by suits we are referring just to the WRU) are the issue. I know the WRU cop plenty of flack, but they are doing well. WRU have been announcing profits and our national side has improved immensely over the past 20 years. At the regional level, the suits are indeed an issue. Perhaps the biggest problem is lack of quality coaching. Name me one Welsh coach with proven success. Our best coaches (Henry, Gatland) have been imports. We have had countless failed regional coaches (Lyn, Phil, Holley/Johnson, Dai Young, Turner, Kingsley, Darren Edwards, Burnell, Nige).

The other issue is the holdouts. Everybody hears of the 'golden era' and many still bask in the glory of it. We hear of the RFC days and all that. Things, however, have changed. Look on the Pontypridd facebook page, it is full of deluded fans. Someone needs to show me exactly how Pontypridd are going to make money and be successful if all the other regions are failing. We don't have the player/coaching/financial base to support five clubs (arguably four).

As I have said, it will take a new generation, one that has been raised around the regions, for it to actually become accepted.

The whole mindset has to change. For years we lived off 'As long as we beat the English'. It was so dire that any narrow loss was something to be pleased about and we always thought things would turn around. I have lost count of the number of times we have lost to a SH opponent by a try. Still, after each match it is "Well, almost there". Then a grand slam pops up and we think everything is wonderful. I do believe it is changing, the Australia tour showed this to me. Sure, we lost every match (don't get me started, I had to take a break after that series). If this was years past it would be "Almost won a series in Aus, nice work!". As gutting as it was, people admitted that we simply blew it and we really can't take positives from the loss as we might have done. It might sound twisted, but we must accept where we are before we start moving.

My apologies if this doesn't make much sense, been up for a while (yet I still refuse to sleep). I'll have a read through this later and try to clear anything up.

 

[smartcooky]

I wouldn't say the suits (if by suits we are referring just to the WRU) are the issue. I know the WRU cop plenty of flack, but they are doing well. WRU have been announcing profits and our national side has improved immensely over the past 20 years. At the regional level, the suits are indeed an issue. Perhaps the biggest problem is lack of quality coaching. Name me one Welsh coach with proven success. Our best coaches (Henry, Gatland) have been imports. We have had countless failed regional coaches (Lyn, Phil, Holley/Johnson, Dai Young, Turner, Kingsley, Darren Edwards, Burnell, Nige).

The other issue is the holdouts. Everybody hears of the 'golden era' and many still bask in the glory of it. We hear of the RFC days and all that. Things, however, have changed. Look on the Pontypridd facebook page, it is full of deluded fans. Someone needs to show me exactly how Pontypridd are going to make money and be successful if all the other regions are failing. We don't have the player/coaching/financial base to support five clubs (arguably four).

As I have said, it will take a new generation, one that has been raised around the regions, for it to actually become accepted.

The whole mindset has to change. For years we lived off 'As long as we beat the English'. It was so dire that any narrow loss was something to be pleased about and we always thought things would turn around. I have lost count of the number of times we have lost to a SH opponent by a try. Still, after each match it is "Well, almost there". Then a grand slam pops up and we think everything is wonderful. I do believe it is changing, the Australia tour showed this to me. Sure, we lost every match (don't get me started, I had to take a break after that series). If this was years past it would be "Almost won a series in Aus, nice work!". As gutting as it was, people admitted that we simply blew it and we really can't take positives from the loss as we might have done. It might sound twisted, but we must accept where we are before we start moving.

My apologies if this doesn't make much sense, been up for a while (yet I still refuse to sleep). I'll have a read through this later and try to clear anything up.

It makes sense.

We went through this at the beginning of Super Rugby back in 1996. Before that, we had a three nation domestic competition called the Super Six, and that was followed by the Super 10. The New Zealand teams involved were the NPC. Qualification was somtime by NPC finishing position, and sometime by invitation.

Then in 1996, after the Rugby War when Jock Hobbs was key in saving the game by thwarting Kerry Packer's attempt to create a World Rugby Corporation, hole thing went professional and the five "Franchises" were created. Unlike the Welsh regions though, New Zealand fans for the most part embraced the changes, and followed the new ly created team.

I have no doubt that, had Packer been able to succeed in taking over rugby, then we would have seen a Club system similar to the current English and French system, with private club owners trying to dictate the terms, and this would eventually have undermined NZ's dominance at international level.

 

[Tribesmen-ce-123]

Sounds like Welsh club rugby is still in dire straits, nothing new there. Its amazing how they can still be successful at international level, when their clubs/regions suffer from lack of support etc, while Ireland are the complete opposite.

 

[Draggs]

I am a huge believer in central contracts (another part of professional rugby that we need to embrace).
Look at the talent that has left Wales over the past two seasons. You can't tell me James Hook wouldn't be a great asset to the Blues, likewise Paul James anywhere.

New Zealand does benefit from having their population centres (for the most part) located away from each other. In Wales it is pretty much between Newport and Llanelli, so no real division or borders.

A surprising amount (OK, probably not surprising) of fans claim to care little about the national side. (Scarlets...) I think that with more national success this would change, but having central contracts would give the WRU a fairer claim to the players than they currently have, and perhaps sort out some of the disagreements.

@Tribesman, yep, that is too true. I always say Leinster would beat Ireland.

One of the big issues is the economy. I understand this is a factor elsewhere in Europe/the world, but things in Wales really aren't great. Who has the money to go watch a club every week?

 

[Feicarsinn]

Yeah, I was confused by Ponty's general idiocy.


By the way, surely the fact that the most successful club side in the Welsh Premiership is one of the largest clubs in the best Welsh region is no coincidence? Ponty should have a think on that before throwing their toys out of the pram.

 

[Bluemoon]

This news story is not overly surprising unfortunately. On one hand, Pontypridd might feel somewhat offended that the level of game offered to them is the LV cup fixtures, which are of a very poor quality. But on the other hand, there would be Pontypridd players blooded in those games, plus the crowd would be small anyway, so I can see where the the Blues are coming from.

With the recent idea of creating that semi-pro type region in Pontypridd and its surrounding areas there is still a candle to the people who believe regional rugby won't work and will be over turned.

In the last 5 years Cardiff Blues have been very focused upon investing in the academies, the coaching days and the player visits to schools and to the youngsters in the area. They were smart to the fact that developing a support, history and affiliation with the region would be a long process and that the exact attitude shown in this news story is very hard to crack. Give it a bit longer and this 'I Will Never Be A Blue' attitude will die away and you'll have the youngsters who once had Jamie Roberts poster signed on their wall taking their kids to the Blues games. This is a long term strategy from Cardiff Blues and this is why they haven't had any full fixtures offered previously.

I believe all the regions have fantastic academies. The Scarlets are seeing the results and I think the Blues and the Ospreys will to, its just keeping the balance between success (to keep regional interest) and blooding the youngsters.

 

[Feicarsinn]

This news story is not overly surprising unfortunately. On one hand, Pontypridd might feel somewhat offended that the level of game offered to them is the LV cup fixtures, which are of a very poor quality. But on the other hand, there would be Pontypridd players blooded in those games, plus the crowd would be small anyway, so I can see where the the Blues are coming from.

With the recent idea of creating that semi-pro type region in Pontypridd and its surrounding areas there is still a candle to the people who believe regional rugby won't work and will be over turned.

In the last 5 years Cardiff Blues have been very focused upon investing in the academies, the coaching days and the player visits to schools and to the youngsters in the area. They were smart to the fact that developing a support, history and affiliation with the region would be a long process and that the exact attitude shown in this news story is very hard to crack. Give it a bit longer and this 'I Will Never Be A Blue' attitude will die away and you'll have the youngsters who once had Jamie Roberts poster signed on their wall taking their kids to the Blues games. This is a long term strategy from Cardiff Blues and this is why they haven't had any full fixtures offered previously.

I believe all the regions have fantastic academies. The Scarlets are seeing the results and I think the Blues and the Ospreys will to, its just keeping the balance between success (to keep regional interest) and blooding the youngsters.

Yes, the regions will become more solidified as their acadamies grow stronger and effort is put in at grassroots level. While the Irish provincial deal has had immense benefits in terms of unity, there were some teething issues up until quite recently in Leinster. There was very much a feeling outside of Dublin that Leinster were a posh boy city team and a lot of people from the country identified more with Munster. Part of this was down to Munster's success of course, but the point remains. However, Leinster put in a lot of work in the less traditional areas of the province and it's now starting to pay dividends. A lot of focus was aimed at club rugby, which is more important in the rural counties as opposed to school in the city and this has been reaping rewards, with the Leinster clubs team beating the Leinster schools team for the first time last year. We've managed to expand our brand, are now getting some fairly tasty players from the rural areas (I'm looking at you SOB) and in pre season we had a training session in Carlow that was attended by thousands.

So yes, Cardiff are doing the right thing by aiming at grassroots. If the old heads at Ponty want to be *****, so be it. They're fighting a losing battle in the long run.

 

[nelty]

What those outside of the Welsh valleys or Wales fail to realise is the level of hatred felt towards the WRU and their bedfellows Cardiff 'blues'. No real rugby supporter in the valleys will ever support a team called Cardiff... We are not ani-regionalism, we are anti-Cardiff... Cardiff was imposed on us as our regional team, when in our eyes we already have a representative team in Pontypridd, with Cardiff deemed our arch enemy or rival! Not only was Cardiff imposed on us as our 'region', the club itself made no attempt to rebrand itself to express its wider scope or to make those under its supposed umbrella feel represented, and for the 9 years since regionalism they made little or no attempt to engage with its 'region', only this season under new leadership have they even bothered to try, but its 9 years too late, the resentment felt can never be overcome now... A valleys region is a necessity if the WRU dont want to lose the interest and support of almost a quarter of the Welsh population! I for one (and one of many thousands) WILL NEVER BE A BLUE...

 

[Draggs]

What those outside of the Welsh valleys or Wales fail to realise is the level of hatred felt towards the WRU and their bedfellows Cardiff 'blues'. No real rugby supporter in the valleys will ever support a team called Cardiff... We are not ani-regionalism, we are anti-Cardiff... Cardiff was imposed on us as our regional team, when in our eyes we already have a representative team in Pontypridd, with Cardiff deemed our arch enemy or rival!

The Warriors were put in place as an attempt at a valleys team, and failed miserably. There was bickering because Pontypridd and Bridgend refused to cooperate with each other. How do you expect a team to survive is the fans can't even support it?

Not only was Cardiff imposed on us as our 'region', the club itself made no attempt to rebrand itself to express its wider scope or to make those under its supposed umbrella feel represented,

True, but those in the valleys made it well clear before it had even happened that any attempts to gain their support would be worthless. Incompetent management at the Blues didn't help.

and for the 9 years since regionalism they made little or no attempt to engage with its 'region', only this season under new leadership have they even bothered to try, but its 9 years too late, the resentment felt can never be overcome now... A valleys region is a necessity if the WRU dont want to lose the interest and support of almost a quarter of the Welsh population! I for one (and one of many thousands) WILL NEVER BE A BLUE...

As I said, the Blues management was awful. You can't tell me that if they did try, it would be accepted, whether one, two, five, nine years later. What really gets me is that the Pontypridd management said that they hope things can be worked out, yet they have just blown an attempt at reconciling the situation for petty reasons.

 

[Bluemoon]

Poor management or a realisation that the 'I will never be a blue' mob were part of the reason that the Warriors failed. I can see an argument for both.

'Cardiff' was only imposed on the area after the area failed to support their own region and a full franchise was no longer financially feasible (amongst other issues). Why should the blues rebrand again for an audience that are highly unlikely to turn up anyway? It doesn't make business sense.

As I said in a previous post, the future are the youngsters and the blues are doing much better in attracting that audience for the future of the region.

 

[Draggs]

Poor management or a realisation that the 'I will never be a blue' mob were part of the reason that the Warriors failed. I can see an argument for both.

'Cardiff' was only imposed on the area after the area failed to support their own region and a full franchise was no longer financially feasible (amongst other issues). Why should the blues rebrand again for an audience that are highly unlikely to turn up anyway? It doesn't make business sense.

As I said in a previous post, the future are the youngsters and the blues are doing much better in attracting that audience for the future of the region.

I agree. I have made mention to this as well. People who have been brought up in the regional era will have a different perspective. I hope that this would bring a change in the mindset down the line.
The Blues had an excellent turnout for their training camp. If they keep doing things such as this and playing their cards right, people will come.

 

[welshglory]

The thing is regional rugby could have been so much better, but the clubs put their interests before anything else and we were/are basically left with super clubs. They're trying to get rid of that image now and as you say it's up to the younger generations.

The WRU original proposals were much better. The regions to be honest don't have anyone to blame but themselves.

 

[Draggs]

I have yet to see anybody come out with an alternative to the current regional setup that would be better.
Say what you want about the valleys, etc, but ultimately you need to be based in a population centre to be successful.

 

[dullonien]

The original regional plans were better. They consisted of four provincial teams under the control of the WRU. They were going to be based in Llanelli (Llanelli, Swansea & Neath), Cardiff (Cardiff, Bridgend & Pontypridd), Newport (Newport, Caerphilly & Ebbw Vale) and Wrexham (all north Wales clubs). This would have been a very good system, although the first two would be much stronger than the last two, but if players were distributed well it could have worked. If the plan was for the 4 provincial teams to be run by the WRU, then I would have imagined central contracts would have been on the cards.

Having four sides to begin with, instead of 5, would have saved the money wasted on the Warriors, and having a North Wales province from the off could have meant that rugby in North Wales would already be much stronger than it is now.

Alas, the clubs didn't agree to it, with Llanelli and Cardiff wanting to stand alone and Ponty refused to team up with Cardiff.

 

[cyRil]

Its amazing how they can still be successful at international level, when their clubs/regions suffer from lack of support etc

And I'll take that until the day I die.

 

[Draggs]

Can you imagine the Turks, Jacks, and Neefers all supporting one team??
Until people get the whole RFC-era mentality erased, things will hardly change.