Prem to be expanded & ring fenced?

Discussion in 'Premiership Rugby / Premiership Cup' started by Tigs Man, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. Tigs Man

    Tigs Man Senior Member

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  3. ragerancher

    ragerancher Senior Member

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    Why get good when you can rely on your wealth to get the entire league ring fenced instead? The big English clubs need to step up, the standard of play and coaching has been pretty shocking for the resources they have. English club rugby seems to be infected with an ultra conservatives, low-skill low thinking attitude to rugby.
     
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  4. The Alpha Bro

    The Alpha Bro Senior Member

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    I hope it doesn't happen. It'd work wonders with your national side!

    I think you need to do something to your league over there. You're going to fall further behind the French if you continue doing the exact same as them with less interest.
     
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  5. higgik

    higgik Senior Member

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    surely, 14 should be the number. Played just like Pro14, but with 2 less games. Home and away in group, 12 matches, home or away v other group, plus a ‘ranking’ match so 1 v 1, etc.
     
  6. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    **** groups in the prem.
    Just **** that.


    I want the prem to keep relegation, but if they were to bin the prem cup and increase to 14 it wouldn't be the end of the world. Realistically we have a few teams who yoyo, with no one else really getting a sniff.
    Exeter and Leeds being the two outliers, with Chiefs finding great success after promotion, and Leeds dropping off after their last relegation.

    London Welsh show what can happen to a club that try and buy too flight rugby.
     
  7. Tigs Man

    Tigs Man Senior Member

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    Would hate a conference system.
    yuck.

    Give me 14 team no Prem cup, Full A league with no A league during the international periods and make up for it by playing it in the European games instead.
    Prem rugby can update their shitty outdated website to something like the NFL has, Bring in a A league Gamepass for £7.99 a month (Which I would pay) Let's be real the only people who go to A league are the ones who get free tickets from being a seson ticket holder or club member.

    Premiership rugby is massively outdated in it's marketing and Tech side.

    Would take Yorkshire or Doncaster back up to have a 3rd team in the North, I like Ealing but I don't want to see another london based team.
     
  8. Tigs Man

    Tigs Man Senior Member

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    What if the 13th team is the Sunwolves!!!
     
  9. CraigWarrior

    CraigWarrior Member

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    I would keep things the same. I know people say it means 1 team will yo-yo. Does not always have to be like that. Bristol look like they will be ok this season. You have to keep the dream alive for Clubs. I know miserable folk will say being realistic is the way forward.
     
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  10. living sacrifice

    living sacrifice Senior Member

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    Stopping relegation won’t make the rugby any better to watch, or any better quality. It may help with finances but it would mean that over half the games become useless and that some matches would be pointless really.

    Surely the premiership needs splitting in two (top league and poor league) so that we keep our English players in fewer clubs and see better quality rugby.
     
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  11. Tigs Man

    Tigs Man Senior Member

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    I do agree that the league needs shortening.
    But I don't see how England can support 2 pro leagues on it's own not unless it tries to join some SA teams or something.

    Looking at other clubs forums etc so many people have this romanticised vision of Promotion and relegation they seem to think the next Exeter is around the corner, they don't seem to realise that English rugby needs stability in wages and structure.
    Imagine what London Welsh would be currently if it didn't fuk it self over with promotion?

    No one seems to understand how bad the money situation is in the Prem.
    Irish - Traditional team
    Ealing - Money guy ill worry family wouldn't want to carrying on funding team.
    Jersey - Can't afford the Championship let alone the prem.
    Nottingham - No interest
    Bedford - No interest
    Pirates - Interest but stadium only just getting planning minimum really 5 years
    Coventry - As above
    Scottish - No interest
    Doncaster - No Interest
    Richmond - Amateur team
    Hartpury - No Interest
    Yorkshire - Have had to cut spending.

    All relegation currently does is fuk over the team going down and stops them from being able to grow.

    I would love a 2 10 team leagues with promotion and relegation, but the championship team would need at the least
    5 years stability to develop infrastructure
    and money to help develop it.

    I would love to see
    a full academy 20 team academy league
    a full Development league

    No cap for your own academy produced players
    A limited cap for non academy produced players
    1 non academy Marquee player.

    But the money isn't their to support it and I doubt it will ever be there.
    Really the best way to get the money if we could would be to try and bring in the 4 SA franchises (Which would be hard but SA and England have the biggest TV money I believe and it would benefit both unions massively IMO)
    13 Prem shares teams, 4 SA teams and Yorkshire, Pirates, Coventry/Doncaster (Would prefer Doncaster unless Wasps move back south for the spread).
     
  12. Which Tyler

    Which Tyler Senior Member

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    It really is, by but have to live within their means - something that no club has very shown any desire to do.

    He biggest issue in all of this is the suicidal increase in salary cap, which saw most clubs go from being broadly sustainable, to throwing themselves off he cliff just because.

    Besides; no-one's expecting a 2-tier league of 20 clubs to all be financed to the same level as the top spending current 13; but a relatively small degree of redistributing finances (which the top 13 will never, ever vote for, even if faced with their own destruction), and boosts to exposure and consequent sponsorship and gate receipts that go along with this. As you well know.

    Besides; pretty much everyone accepts the the 2-tier top league WOULD have to be ring-fenced; so you still get your ring fence; just with a sustainable structure involved.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  13. snoopy snoopy dog dog

    snoopy snoopy dog dog Senior Member

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    Perhaps a solution can be found to ring fence at 12 teams and keep the 13 current shareholders happy.

    Looking at these four factors:
    1. During the summer London Irish were reportedly offered money to buy out their share. I think the figure was £3m.
    2. A few weeks ago it was reported that Premiership Rugby was highly likely to sell a 30% ownership share to CVC Capital for £200m, valuing the league at £667m.
    3. World Rugby have sanctioned teams from the same country playing in different pro leagues; South Africa in Super Rugby and Pro 14, Japan in Top League and Pro 14.
    4. Pro 14 has expressed a willingness to expand into bigger markets.

    Say Premiership Rugby offer London Irish a much larger buyout which is now possible due to the CVC Capital investment. London Irish accept on the proviso they can apply to join another league, the current Pro 14.

    Benefits:
    1. Premiership Rugby get their ringfenced league which offers stability to their member clubs.
    2. Pro 14 get access to the London market which dwarfs all other markets in the league. It opens the possibility of a final being played in London.
    3. Flights to London are a hell of a lot easier for the South African teams.
    4. London Irish have natural rivalries with the Irish provinces already which will generate interest.
    5. There are sizable Welsh, Scottish and South African communities in London opening the possibility of good away support.

    Maybe it's being overly simplistic but I think it could work and keep everyone happy. There'd be the possibility for ambitious clubs like Ealing, Cornish Pirates, Coventry and Yorkshire to apply for membership of Pro Rugby in future if Premiership Rugby don't want to expand beyond 12.

    tl;dr
     
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  14. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Doubt London Irish would do that, they'd lose all RFU funding and collapse in a season.

    Unless the IRFU came in with some cash
     
  15. snoopy snoopy dog dog

    snoopy snoopy dog dog Senior Member

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    Yep, if London Irish didn't accept a big payoff and didn't get RFU funding they'd fail. Apparently they're already losing £2.5m per year at the moment so any shortfall in their current revenue would have serious consequences you'd imagine. What's also apparent is that their current business model isn't working and they need to try something else.
     
  16. higgik

    higgik Senior Member

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    But if the big pay off was 1/13 of £667m, then that could possibly give them time to fund several years in pro14, while getting funding for the new competition. I think more people would watch them play in Pro 14 than in Premiership.
     
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  17. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Why do you think that?
    There is very very little interest in the pro14 in England, hence the tv rights getting passed around so much due to non existent viewing figures.
     
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  18. snoopy snoopy dog dog

    snoopy snoopy dog dog Senior Member

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    Of course there isn't, there's no English team in the Pro 14 so why should English fans care. It's entirely reasonable that they don't. There's very little interest in Ireland towards Premiership Rugby for the exact same reason. Targeting the English market without an English team in it is foolish. Celtic Rugby Limited were dead right to take a massively improved TV deal from Premier Sports. If it disenfranchises potentially 55m English people who don't care anyway, why should they be bothered?

    Last season in the Premiership, discarding the season opener double header in Twickenham which artificially inflates their figures to 12000 average attendance, London Irish averaged 7748 fans per game. This season their highest attendance is just 3406. They're shedding fans and money at an alarming rate. The last time London Irish were drawn to play an Irish team in the Heineken Cup, they drew over 20000 fans to the game (Munster in 2010/11). They averaged just over 16000 fans in the Premiership that season. Last time they played Leinster in the Heineken Cup (2009/10), they drew 37000 to Twickenham. They averaged just over 13000 in the Premiership that season. It's reasonable to think that the 4 natural rivalries they have in the Pro 14 will bring increased support.

    Back to the Premiership being ringfenced, if there were 13 teams, is there enough talent to go around? The standard of some of the teams in the lower half of the table is dire already (as it is in most leagues).
     
  19. living sacrifice

    living sacrifice Senior Member

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    I think adding teams would make the quality even worse and would do a lot of harm to the England team overall. I want less teams or a conference system.
     
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  20. higgik

    higgik Senior Member

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    How about completely scrapping all the domestic leagues and have a European League of 40 teams.
    Conference system, 8 divisions of 5, playing home and away in division, (8 matches), home or away v 2 other groups (10 matches) as well as 2 bye weeks for programmed rest, or allowing a team to take a home match to e.g. USA.
    Play offs for division winners and the next best 8 records, into a play off system. Straight knockout, with a week off between semi finals and final, which would be at a neutral venue.
    The ‘club’ rugby would then be completed over 25 weeks, with maximum of 22 matches for any player.

    This would be a reduction of 10 matches overall.
    Just got to decide on which teams would be in the league.
     
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  21. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Sounds terrible, tbh
     
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