Premiership Final to move to Old Trafford?

[Teh Mite]

The Aviva Premiership Grand Final could be staged at Old Trafford in 2013 or 2014 as part of a concerted effort to engage rugby fans in the north of England.There have also been talks about England playing a warm-up match against an invitational team of Premiership players in Bolton next May before they embark on a three-Test tour of South Africa.The chances of that fixture happening appear to have receded over the last two months - but there is a strong desire within Premiership Rugby, the clubs' umbrella body, to take their showpiece final to the north.Press Association Sport understands Premiership Rugby is yet to sign a new deal with the Rugby Football Union over the future use of Twickenham for the final.Premiership Rugby would hope to have the support of the RFU over the venture given their urgent need to sell Rugby World Cup tickets at Old Trafford, St James' Park, Anfield and Elland Road in 2015.The RFU have had to guarantee an £80million payment to the International Rugby Board and ticket sales will be their only revenue stream.Tournament organisers need to shift an ambitious 2.8million tickets to hit their target, an average of over 58,000 per game.The last four Premiership finals have attracted crowds in excess of 80,000 to Twickenham. Old Trafford would be the most likely northern venue.The north of England used to be a rugby powerhouse. In 1979 The North, featuring players like Roger Uttley and Bill Beaumont, beat New Zealand 21-9 at Otley.Sale and Newcastle are the only top-flight clubs in the north. Both have won the Premiership ***le but neither has managed to build any sustained success.​

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5ieLeCmPLFQKpbLLgJZBs74YCLv4A?docId=N0463491323938159381A

I'm no fan of Twickenham, but this had "bad idea" written all over it. I was at the "Argentina v England" game in 2009 and there couldn't have been barely 30,000 people there for a full-cap test match. Moving the final away from Twickenham will doom the Premiership the same way as the Cup has become nothing more then a farcical distraction on the side.

 

[Seaton]

The bit about the world cup is what really interests me. 58 000 per game? Minimum!?! Where the f*** are they getting all these 60 000+ seater stadia from?

Twickenham, Wembley, the Emirates, St. James' Park, Old Trafford, where else?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That's an average though - they'll sell out Twickenham for all the England matches and all the knockouts, same with the Millenium for Wales games - I imagine the All Blacks games will be in Twickenham as well, and they'll sell out for their bigger opponents
Then the football stadiums of 30k+ will even it out a bit


Don't like the idea of moving the final to Old Trafford - I don't think they sell it out for the Super League final, so what chance does the Aviva have?


Then again, maybe they're gearing up for Sale to be in the final this year

 

[McTallshort]

The bit about the world cup is what really interests me. 58 000 per game? Minimum!?! Where the f*** are they getting all these 60 000+ seater stadia from?

Twickenham, Wembley, the Emirates, St. James' Park, Old Trafford, where else?

Thats daft, would be better playing in smaller grounds that you can fill than huge grounds that are half empty makes for a better atmosphere and normally a better game.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Don't forget how close in proximity we are to a lot of rugby nations though - I think we'll have a pretty good turnout for the WC. Should be on par with France 07, if not better.

Italy, Ireland, France, Romania, Georgia - all just short flights away (Ryanair 99p specials, in most cases)
Scotland and Wales can drive
Australia/All Blacks/South Africa will pull in the crowds regardless

The "minnows" may struggle to pull in crowds, but price them right, and get them in the right location (i.e. where there are a load of rugby fans) and they should sell well

 

[Seaton]

I realise the 58k is an average, but for that you are relying not only the big games to sell out, but nearly all the 'smaller' games as well, or being very close to full.

Just think the article is correct in saying the figure is ambitious, it may well be reached, but prudency is not running at the highest for this guesstimate.

 

[gingergenius]

I think moving the final to Old Trafford, for one year, makes a lot of sense. It may not get the same crowd, but Union cannot afford to become a 'Southern' sport in the same way RL is most definitely Northern. No harm in playing in the North every now and again.

As for the world cup, Twickenham will sell out 83000 for four England pool games and 3 knockouts. There is incredible appetite for rugby, and money, in the South-East.




For the groups, I'd suggest basing England at Twickenham; New Zealand at the Millennium, Australia at Old Trafford and South Africa at Wembley for their two biggest group games.

Other than that, Kingsholm, Welford Road, Franklin's Gardens, the Stoop, Sixways and the Rec should all pull in fans for smaller games.

Quarter Finals, have one at Twickers, one in Cardiff, one in Manchester and use St. James' Park for the other.

Semi use Twickenham and Old Trafford, use Wembley for the 3rd place playoff and Twickers for the final.

That leaves about 16 games that should be getting attendances of 60-85,000. There's then 32 other matches which will get hopefully 10,000 each, meaning a realistic average of about 30,000 per match, which I think is pretty good.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The 2011 RWC averaged 30,777 per match and the 2007 averaged 47,150

I think if we only averaged 30k, considering the ease of access to the UK, it wouldn't/shouldn't be considered a success

 

[psychic duck]

I think moving the final to Old Trafford, for one year, makes a lot of sense. It may not get the same crowd, but Union cannot afford to become a 'Southern' sport in the same way RL is most definitely Northern. No harm in playing in the North every now and again.

As for the world cup, Twickenham will sell out 83000 for four England pool games and 3 knockouts. There is incredible appetite for rugby, and money, in the South-East.




For the groups, I'd suggest basing England at Twickenham; New Zealand at the Millennium, Australia at Old Trafford and South Africa at Wembley for their two biggest group games.

Other than that, Kingsholm, Welford Road, Franklin's Gardens, the Stoop, Sixways and the Rec should all pull in fans for smaller games.

Quarter Finals, have one at Twickers, one in Cardiff, one in Manchester and use St. James' Park for the other.

Semi use Twickenham and Old Trafford, use Wembley for the 3rd place playoff and Twickers for the final.

That leaves about 16 games that should be getting attendances of 60-85,000. There's then 32 other matches which will get hopefully 10,000 each, meaning a realistic average of about 30,000 per match, which I think is pretty good.

the 2007 World Cup got 36,000 for Romania v Portugal, 33,000 for Georgia v Namibia

in fact only three matches in the entire tournament were below 30,000 (all matches in Pool A that were held in Montpellier South Africa v USA, Samoa v Tonga and USA v Tonga)

I think 10,000 is a bit unambitious, especially considering how the British public has done tremendously well in selling out Olympic events

 

[m0rris]

As for the world cup, Twickenham will sell out 83000 for four England pool games and 3 knockouts. There is incredible appetite for rugby, and money, in the South-East.

For the groups, I'd suggest basing England at Twickenham; New Zealand at the Millennium, Australia at Old Trafford and South Africa at Wembley for their two biggest group games.

Other than that, Kingsholm, Welford Road, Franklin's Gardens, the Stoop, Sixways and the Rec should all pull in fans for smaller games.

That would make alot of sense. In towns like Bath, Leicester and Glaws theres plenty of people who'd cram into the stadia to watch a match. It'd be great to have RWC games on our doorsteps!

As for Old Trafford, it makes a bit of sense going up North where the club game is pretty poor ATM. However, it'll probably just mean a massive journey for W.Country/London/E. Midlands fans.

 

[gingergenius]

the 2007 World Cup got 36,000 for Romania v Portugal, 33,000 for Georgia v Namibia

in fact only three matches in the entire tournament were below 30,000 (all matches in Pool A that were held in Montpellier South Africa v USA, Samoa v Tonga and USA v Tonga)

I think 10,000 is a bit unambitious, especially considering how the British public has done tremendously well in selling out Olympic events

OK, but this would mean games would have to be taken out of rugby grounds and held in football stadiums instead. But I just can't imagine how 30,000 people are going to go Villa Park and watch Georgia vs. Romania when Leicester couldn't even sell out Welford Road on the weekend for a Heineken Cup game. Unless you give out 100s of free tickets to schools and charge everybody else a fiver.

PS. in fairness, morris, Manchester's only 2 hours from London by train.

 

[Nielsch]

OK, but this would mean games would have to be taken out of rugby grounds and held in football stadiums instead. But I just can't imagine how 30,000 people are going to go Villa Park and watch Georgia vs. Romania when Leicester couldn't even sell out Welford Road on the weekend for a Heineken Cup game. Unless you give out 100s of free tickets to schools and charge everybody else a fiver.

PS. in fairness, morris, Manchester's only 2 hours from London by train.

Such a match would probably be played at Kingsholm. And do not underestimate the number of Georgia's travelling supporters.

 

[Nielsch]

By the way, only two real club rugby stadiums are in line to host matches: Kingsholm and Welford Road. Rest will be football stadiums.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Rugby_World_Cup

 

[welshglory]

It makes a lot of sense to do this. The world cup's coming soon and they've got to get the interest of more than Leicester southwards.

In fact they should try holding a lot more internationals as well up there. NZ, Aus and SA hosts their test matches in all of their stadiums. There needs to be a bigger effort to get more of the country involved.

 

[Melhor Time]

Sorry for the late arrival.

I think moving the final to Old Trafford, for one year, makes a lot of sense. It may not get the same crowd, but Union cannot afford to become a 'Southern' sport in the same way RL is most definitely Northern. No harm in playing in the North every now and again.

As for the world cup, Twickenham will sell out 83000 for four England pool games and 3 knockouts. There is incredible appetite for rugby, and money, in the South-East.

For the groups, I'd suggest basing England at Twickenham; New Zealand at the Millennium, Australia at Old Trafford and South Africa at Wembley for their two biggest group games.

Other than that, Kingsholm, Welford Road, Franklin's Gardens, the Stoop, Sixways and the Rec should all pull in fans for smaller games.

Quarter Finals, have one at Twickers, one in Cardiff, one in Manchester and use St. James' Park for the other.

Semi use Twickenham and Old Trafford, use Wembley for the 3rd place playoff and Twickers for the final.

That leaves about 16 games that should be getting attendances of 60-85,000. There's then 32 other matches which will get hopefully 10,000 each, meaning a realistic average of about 30,000 per match, which I think is pretty good.

I should make it clear that I am not English and haven´t lived there at all. I have been there on two occassions but certainly don´t want to pretned to be able to talk on equal terms with someone from there. Then again I´ve never been to France but follow the Top 14 really closely and the French test team too. France has seen rugby go from secondary to soccer to equal to better in not much time at all. The Top 14 continues to still mainly be in small towns but its changing. Regular season games are moved all the time to larger venues and almost always successfully - Montpellier vs Leinster being therare failure. This doesn´t happen in England. When it does its Harlequins using Twickehman of Saracens using Wembley. Sale Sharks are like Biarritz and Perpignan surely.... Biarritz use San Sebastien and pack it while Barcelona was packed for Perpignan vs Toulon. It happens in both the Top 14 and Heineken Cup and doesn´t stop there as it extends to the Amlin Challenge Cup.

Amlin Challenge Cup Final in 2010 at Marseilles and full - 60,000 for Toulon vs Cardiff Blues.

2011 final at Cardiff but not at Millenium Stadium. 2012 in London but at the Stoop rather than Twickenham.

Top 14 Semi Finals - never home matches vs Aviva Premiership Semi Finals - always home matches. Since RWC 2007 the venues have been Bordeaux, Marseilles, Lyon, Montpellier, St Etienne, and Marseilles but never featuring the Top 14 side from that city. Nantes in line to host a 2012 Semi Final with Toulouse maybe to host the other but not with Toulouse playing there. All are 34,000 or bigger. All hosted RWC matches in 2007. Franklin Gardens is far smaller but remains much bigger than Bath, Sale and others. Not a venue for an Aviva Premiership Semi Final.

The epic failure in English rugby is the overuse of Twickenham at club and international level.

The RFU should keep the final at Twickenham but have the Semi Finals replicate what France is doing. Between now and Rugby World Cup 2015 all the venues should host Aviva Premiership matches. The venues are to be - London (Wembley, Twickenham and Emirates), Manchester, Liverpool, Coventry, Leicester, Gloucester, Southampton, Cardiff, Leeds and Newcastle. I´d start with Coventry (which has hosted Heineken Cup Semi Finals in the past) and Anfield for the 2012 Semi Finals. For instance - Saracens vs Leicester at Coventry and Harlequins vs Northampton at Liverpool. The top ranked side chooses its Semi Final venue whenever possible.

One November test per year as a minimum must be played away from London. Its essential. Comparing to France again is revealing. Just covering the period since RWC 2003 is highly demonstrative. England has not hosted a single November test (or any at all) away from Twickenham in years. Twickenham is guaranteed to be full or close and this is great for the RFU but.....

2004 vs Argentina, Marseilles
2005 vs Canada, Nantes, vs Tonga, Toulouse
2006 vs New Zealand, Lyon

2008 vs Argentina, Marseilles, vs Pacific Islands, Montbeliard
2009 vs South Africa, Toulouse, vs New Zealand, Marseilles
2010 vs Argentina, Montpellier, vs Fiji, Nantes

I know that Twickenham is owned by the RFU but the management need to think beyond just making maxium profits all the time. Scotland hosting Canada at Aberdeen is brilliant. Scotland hosting Tonga at Murayfield is not. Despite owning the stadium, these matches should always be moved. The benefits of playing in other parts of the country are so much greater than the negatives. France vs New Zealand in Lyon got Lyon ready for the World Cup even though the All Blacks dominated. Lyon got over 40,000 for each of its three matches of Australia vs Japan, Argentina vs Georgia and New Zealand vs Portugal.

I´d like to directly address some points you made. I´ve put them in bold.

1. Moving the Final - Why not move the Semi Final. As is stands they are played in small venues like Franklin Gardens and are rarely full houses.

2. Twickenham hosting four Enghlish pool matches would be an utterly poor move. New Zealand could have hosted the All Blacks RWC matches vs Canada and Japan at Eden Park but having Hamilton and Wellington host was far, far better. France vs Georgia and France vs Namibia at Marseilles and Toulouse were special occassions despite the ease in which France won.

3. England is such a small country and this is great for a World Cup. Having venues stage teams rather than teams play their matches in different places is silly for England. For Australia its sensible but having New Zealand play twice at the Millenium Stadium is nonsense. See my sample draw below.

I was at the World Cup in New Zealand and, honestly, getting around is a positive not a negative. Going from seeing Italy vs the USA in Nelson to seeing Italy vs Ireland in Dunedin five days latter was great and the distance was huge - compared to England. Newcastle - Southampton, i.e. the largest for 2015.

4. You list the Stoop, Sixways, the Rec and Franklin Gardens for hosting matches. None are going to.

5. Leicester and Gloucester will host - possibly three matches each. Certainly not four and maybe only two. Good venues but small ones. Neither should host a match above 3 vs 5 in pool rankings.

6. No to a Quarter Final in Cardiff. Bad, bad idea. It should not even host a match as it is outside of England. The RFU have indicated it is only there for Pool matches. I´d suggest three matches such as New Zealand vs Oceania 1, Ireland vs South Africa and Wales vs Americas 2.

7. I´d, myself, like to see the Quarter Finals spread. One in Wembley, two in Manchester and one in Leeds or Newcastle.

8. Semi Finals is where I like seeing the matches together in the same city. I was in Australia for it in 2003 and it did change my mind on the issue. So, I´d go for Twickenham to host both Semi FInals. The Bronze Final can go to Emirates and Twickenham hosting the Final.

9. Only 16 games to get strong crowds. Thats just not enough and I doubt it´ll be this low. England has a huge population and is so close to the five Nations. Georgia, Russia and Romania whould all play again and have significant fan numbers following the team. South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and Canada all have huge numbers of young people living and working in the country - esp in London. Canada vs Georgia at Coventry is a good idea and should get over 30,000.

10. 32 for 10 matches each is a very pessimitic thing to say. I was shocked to be at Argentina vs Scotland with only 26,000 people there but that was not the norm it was the exception. The match was moved from Christchurch, was played on a Sunday evening rather than Friday or Saturday (good for locals) and was very, very wet. I went to USA vs Italy two days latter in a small town (Nelson) and it was close to being full. Maybe 3,000 Italians and 500 Americans. The other 12,000 were locals like the poster Smartcooky.

In other words, don´t underestimate locals getting behind the tournament. A World Cup is a lot bigger than many realize until they are there to see it for themselves. Nelson is far smaller than Leicester or Coventry and I´d expect both to be full for games like the ones Nelson hosted. Also, had Argentina vs Scotland been at a different venue it would have been full. Say Hamilton or Dunedin - both fit more than 26,000. To repeat, Lyon got virtual full houses for Australia vs Japan, Argentina vs Georgia and New Zealand vs Portugal. Locals backed it AND there were many fans from all countries - inc Portugal. Therefore, Leeds, which is slightly smaller in capacity can certainly be full for Ireland vs Georgia let alone Italy vs New Zealand.

Sample Draw for RWC 2015
Pool A - Australia, Fiji, France, Namibia, USA
Pool B - Argentina, Canada, England, Italy, Russia
Pool C - Georgia, Ireland, Scotland, South Africa, Tonga
Pool D - Japan, New Zealand, Samoa, Romania, Wales

Sample Match Schedule for the Opening Week of RWC 2015

Friday September 8, 2023 England vs Argentina, Twickenham, 6:30pm
Friday September 8, 2023 Australia vs Fiji, Manchester, 8:30pm

Saturday September 8, 2023 Ireland vs Georgia, Leeds, 2:30pm
Saturday September 8, 2023 France vs USA, Liverpool, 4:30pm
Saturday September 8, 2023 New Zealand vs Wales, Wembley Stadium, 6:30pm

Sunday September 9, 2023 South Africa vs Scotland, Newcastle, 2:30pm
Sunday September 9 2023 Italy vs Russia, Southampton, 5:00pm
Sunday September 9 2023 Japan vs Samoa, Leicester,7:30pm

Tuesday September 10 2023 England vs Canada, Manchester, 5:30pm
Tuesday September 10 2023 Fiji vs Namibia, Gloucester, 7:30pm

Wednesday September 11 2023 Wales vs Romania, Emirates Stadium, 5:30pm
Wednesday September 11 2023 Ireland vs Tonga, Liverpool, 7:30pm

 

[Seaton]

"The benefits of playing in other parts of the country are so much greater than the negatives."

Whils it may ring true a lot of the time, this isn't a fact.

For example if your team has a fantastic record at its 'home' ground, well then you want to keep up the "fortress" mentality. Applicable mainly to countries like the home unions where fans from the other side of the country can still make the trip, and if the game is early enough catch a train back.

 

[Teh Mite]

Does this thread still have anything to with the Premiership final?

 

[kovana]

MAN A 58k AVERAGE.. Wooott... That will be one of the biggest ever RWCs for any sport... I think will only be eclipsed by the FIFA WC that was held in 1994 (was it?) in the USA,,,,

 

[sdr]

I don't think this is good for English rugby. Twickenham is the home of English rugby and is where the final should be held.

Sadly, rugby union is dying out in the north and that means there are more rugby union fans in the midlands, south-east and south-west, therefore the final should be held at Twickenham.

 

[Teh Mite]

I don't think this is good for English rugby. Twickenham is the home of English rugby and is where the final should be held.

Sadly, rugby union is dying out in the north and that means there are more rugby union fans in the midlands, south-east and south-west, therefore the final should be held at Twickenham.

By all rights, for a league competition there shouldn't be a final at all.