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Premiership Rugby 21/22 - Rd 5

TRF_Olyy

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TRF_Olyy

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We should have (at least) one Curry back, and Manu too, but I'm not feeling very optimistic about this one...
 

will311293

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Again not feeling hugely confident.

We are really struggling on numbers available and a physical game vs Chiefs is not what we need right now. Scholtz looks like he's not prem fit yet and with Gaskell and Cruse now out again it's looking sparse across the squad.

In terms of overall results,

Sale by 3 - I'm going for a Sale win - Cold Friday night near Manchester and Curry's, Du Preez's and Ross told to go out and smoke Smith and stop him playing. Think this will be a top game. Sale by 3.
Falcons by 5 - Feels like a Falcons kind of game. They are tough to play against up in the fortress of Kingston Park and bears look like they have gone 12 rounds with Fury.
Wuss by 3 - For some reason, just feels like it's either gonna be a Leicester game where they run away and win by 15-20 points or.... its tight as anything either low scoring or high scoring but no-one edging ahead. I'll go with Wuss as i'm enjoying no one running away.
Chiefs by 5 - I'd like to think we have a chance of winning but sadly i'm not optimistic with some of the players we are missing. If we had a full squad, maybe. However, with the injury list now Odogwu, Mills, Atkinson, Barbeary, Gaskell, J Willis, Launchbury, Fekitoa, Cruse, Minozzi, Miller we are in trouble.
Sarries by 10 - Sarries to punish some lose Bath phases, feel it's a fairly clear result.
Irish by 3 - Close and a real battle of the 10's and the flying back 3. Mouth watering line up of OHC/Loader/Parton vs LRZ/Thorley/May/Woodward.
 

Ragey Erasmus

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Sarries are generally a pretty clinical and controlling side. Bath give away penalties like they are going out of fashion. We have the capacity to play some very exciting rugby but until the forwards stop being so stupid / lazy, we cannot hope to rely on any sort of consistency. If the penalty count builds up, we will be relying entirely on individual moments of brilliance to have any hope. If we are going into double digits on penalties again, it would indicate the coaching staff are incapable of addressing the problem.
 

will311293

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Sarries are generally a pretty clinical and controlling side. Bath give away penalties like they are going out of fashion. We have the capacity to play some very exciting rugby but until the forwards stop being so stupid / lazy, we cannot hope to rely on any sort of consistency. If the penalty count builds up, we will be relying entirely on individual moments of brilliance to have any hope. If we are going into double digits on penalties again, it would indicate the coaching staff are incapable of addressing the problem.
Thing is bath are very much rebuilding it feels like. Problem is i'm still not convinced that Hooper is that man.

Also when you look at Bath, Where are the coaches?

you have Stuart Hooper (DoR - Ex Forward) ,Neil Hatley (Head Giver??/Forwards Coach/Defence Coach - Ex Forward), Luke Charteris (Line Out Coach - Ex Forward) Mark Lilley (Scrum Specialist Ex Forward) - with Girvan Dempsey gone to Colstons'

So who is the Back's Coach and whose the attacking coach? and why has the club got no dedicated back's who are now coaches. Seems very odd to have all forwards.

It makes no sense.
 

TRF_Olyy

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It's a shame Budgies vs Bears isn't on the box, should be a good one

Neil Hatley (Head Giver??
Hold Up Wait A Minute GIF by ABC Network
 

Ragey Erasmus

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Thing is bath are very much rebuilding it feels like. Problem is i'm still not convinced that Hooper is that man.

Also when you look at Bath, Where are the coaches?

you have Stuart Hooper (DoR - Ex Forward) ,Neil Hatley (Head Giver??/Forwards Coach/Defence Coach - Ex Forward), Luke Charteris (Line Out Coach - Ex Forward) Mark Lilley (Scrum Specialist Ex Forward) - with Girvan Dempsey gone to Colstons'

So who is the Back's Coach and whose the attacking coach? and why has the club got no dedicated back's who are now coaches. Seems very odd to have all forwards.

It makes no sense.
Issue is Bath have claimed to have been rebuilding and developing a new style ever since the Fords left. We have had a habit of signing poor players in positions we didn't need and neglecting positions we did need. We've always had pretty solid backs but have not had a good set of forwards for a while. The organisation of the club has been flip-flopping all over the place. Considering our coaching staff appears to be all forwards, it's a wonder why it's our forwards who are so poor. Underhill and Reid are the only ones we can really rely on to put in a shift every game. The rest have a habit of going missing. Hell even supposedly world class Faletau performs noticeably worse for Bath than he did for Wales.

I'll be happier when I see the results but after years of hearing "we are learning" only for the exact same mistakes to be repeated season after season, I am not inclined to trust a word the Bath management say any more. It still has the feel of being an old boys club and a play thing for the wealthy owner rather than a proper, professional outfit. It is one of the most widely repeated sentiments of ex players and yet keeps getting dismissed as sour grapes, along with the repeated accusations of poor personnel management.
 

Which Tyler

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We've been rebuilding for a lot longer than that. But then, so does every club every year, it's just a matter of degree.
When is the last time we had the same head coach for more than 3 seasons?


Also when you look at Bath, Where are the coaches?
Neil Hatley is Head Coach and Defence.
Mark Lilley is Forwards Coach
Dave Williams is Attack Coach
Luke Charteris is Line-out Specialist Coach
Ryan Davies is Skills Coach

We're light by a defence coach IMO, with way too little experience in the coaching crew as a whole.

The impression I get is that Hooper is just an assistant when it comes to hand-on coaching.
 

will311293

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We've been rebuilding for a lot longer than that. But then, so does every club every year, it's just a matter of degree.
When is the last time we had the same head coach for more than 3 seasons?



Neil Hatley is Head Coach and Defence.
Mark Lilley is Forwards Coach
Dave Williams is Attack Coach
Luke Charteris is Line-out Specialist Coach
Ryan Davies is Skills Coach

We're light by a defence coach IMO, with way too little experience in the coaching crew as a whole.

The impression I get is that Hooper is just an assistant when it comes to hand-on coaching.
I think an experienced Backs coach would be so beneficial for Bath. IMHO a really experienced backs coach and Defence Coach would really add to this team. Would have gone all out to get Mitchell but i'd recommend Worsley who is awesome.

Thing is much like Bristol, you feel Bath might be spending big bucks on certain players and much less on others. Problem is you look at that team and go... who would you transition out, as i have no idea.
 

BPM

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Again not feeling hugely confident.

We are really struggling on numbers available and a physical game vs Chiefs is not what we need right now. Scholtz looks like he's not prem fit yet and with Gaskell and Cruse now out again it's looking sparse across the squad.

In terms of overall results,

Sale by 3 - I'm going for a Sale win - Cold Friday night near Manchester and Curry's, Du Preez's and Ross told to go out and smoke Smith and stop him playing. Think this will be a top game. Sale by 3.
Falcons by 5 - Feels like a Falcons kind of game. They are tough to play against up in the fortress of Kingston Park and bears look like they have gone 12 rounds with Fury.
Wuss by 3 - For some reason, just feels like it's either gonna be a Leicester game where they run away and win by 15-20 points or.... its tight as anything either low scoring or high scoring but no-one edging ahead. I'll go with Wuss as i'm enjoying no one running away.
Chiefs by 5 - I'd like to think we have a chance of winning but sadly i'm not optimistic with some of the players we are missing. If we had a full squad, maybe. However, with the injury list now Odogwu, Mills, Atkinson, Barbeary, Gaskell, J Willis, Launchbury, Fekitoa, Cruse, Minozzi, Miller we are in trouble.
Sarries by 10 - Sarries to punish some lose Bath phases, feel it's a fairly clear result.
Irish by 3 - Close and a real battle of the 10's and the flying back 3. Mouth watering line up of OHC/Loader/Parton vs LRZ/Thorley/May/Woodward.
I’d probably agree on the results but I doubt they’ll all be that close.

Quins typically struggle at the AJ Bell and with MacGinty likely to join the SA players coming back, I’m anticipating a home win. Sale by 5.

Falcons by 12. Bristol have looked poor, while Falcons are looking good, particularly at home.

Tigers by a good margin. 14+ I reckon. Worcester were soundly beaten by Exeter and I don’t see their level of performance improving to the extent they can beat an in-form Tigers side.

Exeter by 10+. As bad as Worcester were, Exeter looked back to their old selves with Simmonds, LCD, Hill and co. back. I don’t see a depleted Wasps side beating them.

Saracens by 20+. Bath look like arguably the worst side in the league ATM and I think Saracens will rack up a big score.

Irish by 5. This one could be the game of the round with some decent attacking rugby.
 

TRF_Olyy

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MacGinty likely to join the SA players coming back
I hope you're right but last I heard is he's expected to be out for a while (though that was before seeing the specialist about his shoulder, hopefully he just needed a couple of weeks rest - though missing out on America's last game isn't a good sign)



Edit: turns out he didn't travel to America but spent time with a specialist and might actually be back for this game - that'd be a huge huge boost
Throw him and one of the Currys in and we're a very different side
 

BPM

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Yep - 100% agree. You’re also the kind of side Quins struggle against. I don’t see us being able to play in the same way we have against the sides we’ve faced so far.
 

Dan Kelly is Irish

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Tigers losing it's best win streak in ages to worcester would be typical.
Genge out potentially would be big
 

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We've been rebuilding for a lot longer than that. But then, so does every club every year, it's just a matter of degree.
When is the last time we had the same head coach for more than 3 seasons?



Neil Hatley is Head Coach and Defence.
Mark Lilley is Forwards Coach
Dave Williams is Attack Coach
Luke Charteris is Line-out Specialist Coach
Ryan Davies is Skills Coach

We're light by a defence coach IMO, with way too little experience in the coaching crew as a whole.

The impression I get is that Hooper is just an assistant when it comes to hand-on coaching.

Honestly outside of Hatley I have no clue who they are (Obviously I know Charteris as well in terms of player)
 

Which Tyler

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Honestly outside of Hatley I have no clue who they are (Obviously I know Charteris as well in terms of player)
Hatley and Williams are the only experienced coaches in there. Hatley you all know. Williams coached our academy a decade or so ago, who's since spent some time in Japan and South Africa (Kobelco Steelers, Cheetahs and Sharks).
Charteris you obviously all know, started coaching just the lineout when he retired from playing.
Lilley and Davies are also ex-Bath players (and both local, academy products, Lilley played across the front row, and Davis at FH). Neither achieved all that much as players, though Davis showed a lot of promise before knackering his knees. They've been coaching the academy for a few year, and have been promoted up to senior. You'd have to assume that there's promise shown there - and given that they've been responsible for a significant uptick in the quality of our academy, you have to assume it's justified. But it's a real work in progress.

If it feels like a coaching squad building for a few years time, but missing a defensive nerd and a couple of decades of experience in coaching. "Building from within" has been a huge thing at Bath for the last 4 years or so, having been identified as a key for the success of Saracens and Exeter, and this is a product of it.
Given the lack of relegation this year and last year, I don't have a problem with that per se - but I'd be so much happier if we had an additional, experienced defence coach, and an additional "big and nasty" lock - and a better sports psychologist - or at least, one who's better trusted (I don't know if she's not-used-enough or not-good-enough).

I can also kinda see how we got into this mess.
When Bruce came in, he threw money around at a bunch of shiny new things - which is a terrible way to build a team, and didn't work.
He then threw his money at shiny name-recognition coaches (McGeechan, Gold, Ford, Blackadder) with Geech not being interested (or up to date), Gold getting (predictably) backstabbed, Ford going completely crazy, and Blackadder only being asked to hold the fort until the youngsters were ready to depose him.

There's been no stability in there whatsoever; whilst Saracens had Venter > McCall for over a decade, with ex-players throughout the coaching staff; Exeter had Baxter and Hepher for over a decade, with ex-players throughout the coaching staff.
I can see why we've done what we've done; but I'm not convinced about the identity of the talent (or the time-frames for them to actually succeed).
I think Hatley, Williams and Davis are good coaches, and I'm happy with them. But Lilley is no Hatley when it comes to coaching the forwards, and we're being beaten up front. Our lineout seems fairly middle-of-the-road, so Charteris gets a shrug from me.
 
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Dan Kelly is Irish

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I would say the success at Saracens was down to having McCall at the top nothing against Hooper but he just feels like. Murphy type coach nice guy all about the club respected but How can he develop other coaches?
 

Which Tyler

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I would say the success at Saracens was down to having McCall at the top nothing against Hooper but he just feels like. Murphy type coach nice guy all about the club respected but How can he develop other coaches?
Yup, Sarries and Exeter identified the right talent to put in charge, I'm far from convinced that Bath have - though I'm not writing Hooper off just yet - it may feel like he's been there for 5-6 years, but he's only actually had a say in things for 2.1. He's also there as DoR, not coach, so his job is the 5-10 year plan, not the week-to-week coaching - that's Hatley's job (and he seems to be getting let off the hook).
I always feel that a coach can't be fairly judged until their 3rd year, a DoR needs longer. Equally, a coach can be judged mid-season as they can change training and tactics etc; a DoR can only make changes during the off-season, so can take much longer to correct a mistake.

I'm not convinced that Hooper is sticking to his DoR role - but I think that part of that is that Hatley has been over-promoted and should have stuck to the forwards job. I also think that Lilley has been over-promoted and should have stuck to the academy job (though part of his promotion would have been the vacancy left by Hatley's promotion).

If Hooper is effectively head coach, then he's got until Christmas to turn things around for me. If he's DoR then he needs to learn from his mistakes and make some hard decisions (Hatley's unlikely to accept a demotion, so a new forwards coach would be needed as well as defence - and a new head coach with a track record). If he can't make those hard decisions, then he needs to go.
If Hatley is head coach in reality rather than in name only, then he's about half way through his 2nd year, so has a year's worth of leeway from me, but should be feeling some pressure on his job, and needs to demand his DoR gives him the right tools (like a lock and a defence nerd).
 

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