• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

Premiership to expants to 14 teams and be ringfenced?

I do - cons outweight the pros IMO.
Like I say though, I would prefer to see a slightly different geographical spread of teams than we would have according to that article.

As long as this doesn't lead to a net increase in domestic games then I'm all for it.
 
what are the pro's and cons in your opinon?

*edit: sorry that sounds aggy, just curious
 
Pro's of promotion/relegation:

- Gives teams a motivation to improve with the carrot of a better league (in theory - most teams cannot afford/don't want to)
- The "relegation battle" - this is subjective, I don't enjoy it.
- Replaces poorer teams with better ones (in theory, happens less often and mostly when a team is "rebounding")

Cons:

- Encourages defensive, conservative rugby in the bottom 4/6 (depending on tightness of the league)
- Teams in the Championship and teams in the bottom half of the premiership cannot hold on to their players because either they cannot get promoted or the fear of relegation. Imagine the position Yorkshire would be in if they could hold on to their players consistently?
- Teams can't attract investment and cannot create long term plans.
 
Pro's of promotion/relegation:

- Gives teams a motivation to improve with the carrot of a better league (in theory - most teams cannot afford/don't want to)
- The "relegation battle" - this is subjective, I don't enjoy it.
- Replaces poorer teams with better ones (in theory, happens less often and mostly when a team is "rebounding")

Cons:

- Encourages defensive, conservative rugby in the bottom 4/6 (depending on tightness of the league)
- Teams in the Championship and teams in the bottom half of the premiership cannot hold on to their players because either they cannot get promoted or the fear of relegation. Imagine the position Yorkshire would be in if they could hold on to their players consistently?
- Teams can't attract investment and cannot create long term plans.

Well that last one is clearly not true is it? Worcester, Bristol, Pirates, London Scottish, Nottingham etc.... all have good investment, and long term plans to be premiership standard clubs.

Relegation doesn't HAVE to stifle creative rugby. Again Exeter came up and played rugby from the off - so it can be done, I think negative rugby is more about mindset.
 
Worcester and Bristol have absurdly wealthy backers, that's more down to brute spending power than good business, I can't comment on the others - but I'm sure the Pirates would have an easier time attracting investors/getting PP for a decent stadium if they were guaranteed premiership rugby. Stability is a massive factor in business, if you cannot say with certainty which competition you're going to be playing in in 5 years then you aren't going to be in as strong a position as you would be if you could.

Relegation doesn't HAVE to stifle creative rugby. Again Exeter came up and played rugby from the off - so it can be done, I think negative rugby is more about mindset.

Yes - It can be, but scrums can occur without collapsing - more often than not they don't, that's also down to mindset a lot of the time.
And the past two seasons have demonstrated clearly to me that when the bottom 4 aren't worried about relegation they play a hell of a lot more rugby.
 
Last edited:
Worcester and Bristol have absurdly wealthy backers, I can't comment on the others - but I'm sure the Pirates would have an easier time attracting investors/getting PP for a decent stadium if they were garuanteed premiership rugby.

I thought the Pirates stadium plans was down to the council vetoing it not a lack of backers.

Teams have got big backers, in both the championship and the Premiership - and have struggled in both division even when assured premiership rugby (wasps). Would those investors have ploud money into Bristol etc... if promotion was off the cards? Will they remain if promotion is off the cards?

You only have to look at premiership club rugby in Wales to see what a terrible idea closing off the top level of rugby is.

Yes - It can be, but scrums can occur without collapsing - more often than not they don't, that's also down to mindset a lot of the time.

Absolutely.
 
Teams have got big backers, in both the championship and the Premiership - and have struggled in both division even when assured premiership rugby (wasps). Would those investors have ploud money into Bristol etc... if promotion was off the cards? Will they remain if promotion is off the cards?

You only have to look at premiership club rugby in Wales to see what a terrible idea closing off the top level of rugby is.

Eh?

Why would Bristol's owner sell Bristol when they are part of a ringfenced premiership?

In what way is Wales' regionalisation comparable to ringfencing?
 
Very against this.....

Unless they are planning to as you say get rid of the LV cup and maybe put in a proper A league set up.

Also I want the RFU to pump in more funds to the championship so that the standard there gets raised so that the long term view would be to bring back a stronger championship.

I certainly don't want the championship to be left on its own.

But imo this ATM is leaving a very bad taste in my mouth.
 
It would be a fantastic move for the top 14 clubs that make it. The long term certainty makes it a lot easier and safer for them to invest - both in players and facilities. If I was involved in one of the Premiership shareholder clubs, I would be all for it, it would be a dream come true. It should - logically - improve the standard of our top flight markedly.

Whether the likely improvement in the top flight counterbalances problems down the ladder I don't know, but then there's nothing wrong with the Premiership saying "And in 10 years time we will look at lower league clubs with the intention of expanding and inviting in clubs with sufficiently professional infrastructure" - only question is would this move wreck that, or provide a stable structure for them to go and build it? Promotion has, after all, ruined London Welsh - but has made Exeter.
 
Eh?

Why would Bristol's owner sell Bristol when they are part of a ringfenced premiership?

I'm just using Bristol as an example. Essentially what i mean is if you have a team with a backer and their team is not included, why would they stay around? So whilst ti might be great news for Wors & Bristol it will be the death's Knell for everyone else.

In what way is Wales' regionalisation comparable to ringfencing?

Well essentially it created a new elite level above the clubs, the clubs were no longer the achievable pinnacle of the sport in wales and they are on their knees both financially and competitively because of it.
 
I'm just using Bristol as an example. Essentially what i mean is if you have a team with a backer and their team is not included, why would they stay around? So whilst ti might be great news for Wors & Bristol it will be the death's Knell for everyone else.



Well essentially it created a new elite level above the clubs, the clubs were no longer the achievable pinnacle of the sport in wales and they are on their knees both financially and competitively because of it.

Yeah, they fundamentally changed their system and did it badly too - again, what they did is not the same as ringfencing.
Are Doncaster's fans only turning up in the hope that one day they'll be in the premiership? I don't think so.
There are more Doncasters than Bristols.
 
Not to mention - is what happens to the Doncasters of this world the most important thing in rugby? It's close to irrelevant to grass roots, it's not too far off irrelevant what happens to the international team. Do we refuse to change a system for the better because one part of it will suffer?
 
You could say this season is now and has been for a couple of months running with no real risk of relegation. How has this affected how teams have played?
I know Newcastle are playing better.
 
Not to mention - is what happens to the Doncasters of this world the most important thing in rugby?

Why is it any less important? People need dreams, lots of people get semi pro wages playing through the ranks - and those wages are paid by teams with dreams of working their way up to something, take that away and then what happens?

People put a lot of heart and effort into local clubs, and many people want nothing other than to see their club winning and working it's way up the ranks.

Highly competitive grass roots rugby is as important to this countries rugby as Bath or Saints winning the Aviva. That's why Australia are taking huge steps to grow grassroots... which leads onto....

It's close to irrelevant to grass roots, it's not too far off irrelevant what happens to the international team. Do we refuse to change a system for the better because one part of it will suffer?

How do we know this will work in englands favour?

Every other country has a progression path way from bottom up, either for Players or for clubs. Even NZ and Australia etc... the provincial/state sides are the top tier, they are fed by the clubs below them and players move up and down as needed or win promotion and relegation.

This doesn't replicate that for either players or for clubs.
This is
 
The NZ and SA systems have inter-divisional promotion/relegation, not inter-league.
It's strictly tiered and regionalised in all three SANZAR countries.

The NRL is the most popular domestic rugby competition in the world and is a 16 team league with no promotion/relegation.
If the Premiership season was structured exactly like the NRL (with no euro-comp) I would be much happier than with what we have currently.


Doncaster isn't really grass-roots though - their 1st XV isn't anyway.
 
Last edited:
I didn't say they were less important, but they're one section of a greater whole. The fate of Doncaster, Ealing Trailfinders, London Scottish and so on need to be balanced against England's fate, Leicester and Northampton's fate, the fate of all the wee clubs scattered against South East London and North Kent who'll never, ever be able to make it to the top leagues and so on.

Semi-pro wages - you get them a long way down the league in clubs that have no hope of the big time (or for whom big time is London 1); you get them in Ireland, where club rugby will always automatically be the second smallest show in town; I presume you still get them in Wales; and you will continue to get them in the Championship and NS and NN too.

Highly competitive grass roots - I don't call a semi-pro organisation like Doncaster grass-roots personally, but in any case, why are players going to be less competitive? Are clubs going to stop working hard to reach the Championship? Look at Jersey, they've put a lot of back into reaching that level despite it being very clear they're not going further than that anytime soon. There is already a very sizable barrier between Championship and Premiership unless you have Premiership level infrastructure, you still have clubs working very hard to get there.

This country's national team - The likelihood is more stability allows for our rugby clubs to be better businesses. That should in turn allow for better facilities and squads. Which in turn, along with no risk of relegation, should result in better rugby and better player production. That should result in a better international team.

Player pathway - The majority of elite players in this country are picked up playing for small town clubs with no realistic Premiership ambition and play all their rugby bar a loan season or two at one of the top 14 clubs as is. The Championship stumbling would be a loss, but it is a) not certain b) has to be weighed against the advantages we'd get from ringfencing c) probably temporary.

Also, please explain to me how a NZ/Aus/Irish/Welsh/Scottish team moves up to Super/Pro rugby through winning the league.
 
I didn't say they were less important, but they're one section of a greater whole. The fate of Doncaster, Ealing Trailfinders, London Scottish and so on need to be balanced against England's fate, Leicester and Northampton's fate, the fate of all the wee clubs scattered against South East London and North Kent who'll never, ever be able to make it to the top leagues and so on.

Semi-pro wages - you get them a long way down the league in clubs that have no hope of the big time (or for whom big time is London 1); you get them in Ireland, where club rugby will always automatically be the second smallest show in town; I presume you still get them in Wales; and you will continue to get them in the Championship and NS and NN too.

Highly competitive grass roots - I don't call a semi-pro organisation like Doncaster grass-roots personally, but in any case, why are players going to be less competitive? Are clubs going to stop working hard to reach the Championship? Look at Jersey, they've put a lot of back into reaching that level despite it being very clear they're not going further than that anytime soon. There is already a very sizable barrier between Championship and Premiership unless you have Premiership level infrastructure, you still have clubs working very hard to get there.

This country's national team - The likelihood is more stability allows for our rugby clubs to be better businesses. That should in turn allow for better facilities and squads. Which in turn, along with no risk of relegation, should result in better rugby and better player production. That should result in a better international team.

Player pathway - The majority of elite players in this country are picked up playing for small town clubs with no realistic Premiership ambition and play all their rugby bar a loan season or two at one of the top 14 clubs as is. The Championship stumbling would be a loss, but it is a) not certain b) has to be weighed against the advantages we'd get from ringfencing c) probably temporary.

I think we're going to have to disagree then mate.

The NZ and SA systems have inter-divisional promotion/relegation, not inter-league.
It's strictly tiered in all three SANZAR countries.
Also, please explain to me how a NZ/Aus/Irish/Welsh/Scottish team moves up to Super/Pro rugby through winning the league.

As i said either through promotion of clubs (France) or the player path is still open (NZ/Australia/SA).

In Australia for example you play through the groups until you hit the Premier grade, premiergrade is then a feeder for the state run teams that compete in the NRC, if you play NRC by default you are eligible for, lets say, the Waratahs - if you're called up you go up, the club can't refuse you and you go back down based on the requirements of the state.

So even though the club path isn't open the player path is you can essentially work from the top to bottom and when you hit the top you are called in..

I don't believe this would be the case if we ring fenced the clubs in the UK because they are not embedded in the RFU in the same way the tiered structure in the SANZAR is where it is geared directly to prgressing people to play for the national team - not to fulfill the destiny of the money overlord.

The pro 12 and specifically Wales is a great example of how i think it would impact badly on the clubs
 
I don't believe this would be the case if we ring fenced the clubs in the UK because they are not embedded in the RFU in the same way the tiered structure in the SANZAR is where it is geared directly to prgressing people to play for the national team - not to fulfill the destiny of the money overlord.

What do you think the English academies are?

The pro 12 and specifically Wales is a great example of how i think it would impact badly on the clubs

Wales' woes are more directly linked to a poor implementation of regionalisation and the disbanding of their premiership than ring-fencing.
Tigers fans aren't going to suddenly stop giving a **** about Leicester just because London Scottish have no hope of promotion.

The reality is that Wales isn't big enough to sustain professional clubs and regions simultaneously.
 

Latest posts

Top