Question regarding the rules for "high feet"

[Rizuli]

First post here. Had an incident at a game today that kind of annoyed me, was wondering if you guys could clarify some rules for me.


I've played for a few years here in the US. Had a semi-friendly scrimmage today, I was playing with a team of very inexperienced guys versus a very well developed University team. Lots of new guys, so it gets a little bit chippy. I wasn't innocent of the mistakes -- slipped up and made a high tackle (it wasn't hard by any means, just light contact) earlier in the game, got rightly called, but other than that I didn't have any calls against me or play particularly chippy.

Later in the game I had a much larger guy barreling towards me. Tried the usual, low tackle and so on, but got hit hard by another player who was supporting the ball carrier (at least that's what I think happened). Either way I got hit, and with the ruck forming under me ended up falling headfirst with my feet going up in the air for a second. I wasn't illegally flipped or anything, just got beaten, it happens.

The referee stopped the game, pulled me and the captain aside and told me that "We're not even going to pretend that didn't just happen. You had your feet high at another player's head level, and could have kicked him in the face. If this was a real match I'd red card you and report you." Now at this point, I'll admit I lost my cool a little, and told him in a pretty respectful way that I was flipped and wasn't intentionally trying to kick anyone (shouldn't have talked back, I know, but he caught me totally by surprise). There were no calls for a penalty from the other team, they didn't even think there had been anything wrong.

After the game I politely asked the referee to clarify his call (wouldn't have done that in a normal game, but this was a scrimmage). He told me that it's irrelevant what I tried to do, if my feet go high it's a red. I asked him what I was supposed to do, he told me that it was my responsibility to control my feet. I left it at that, thanked him and left, no point in arguing as it was over and done.

My question is, was the referee correct? Now I understand that it is my job to prevent injury to other players, and that intentionally kicking an opponent is a red card, but I've never heard anyone say that it's a red if your feet go high and don't actually make contact with anyone. I personally think he was wrong, I don't see how I'm supposed to somehow tuck my feet in if I just got hit. Would appreciate if anyone could clarify.

Cheers

 

[Maverick1987]

First post here. Had an incident at a game today that kind of annoyed me, was wondering if you guys could clarify some rules for me.


I've played for a few years here in the US. Had a semi-friendly scrimmage today, I was playing with a team of very inexperienced guys versus a very well developed University team. Lots of new guys, so it gets a little bit chippy. I wasn't innocent of the mistakes -- slipped up and made a high tackle (it wasn't hard by any means, just light contact) earlier in the game, got rightly called, but other than that I didn't have any calls against me or play particularly chippy.

Later in the game I had a much larger guy barreling towards me. Tried the usual, low tackle and so on, but got hit hard by another player who was supporting the ball carrier (at least that's what I think happened). Either way I got hit, and with the ruck forming under me ended up falling headfirst with my feet going up in the air for a second. I wasn't illegally flipped or anything, just got beaten, it happens.

The referee stopped the game, pulled me and the captain aside and told me that "We're not even going to pretend that didn't just happen. You had your feet high at another player's head level, and could have kicked him in the face. If this was a real match I'd red card you and report you." Now at this point, I'll admit I lost my cool a little, and told him in a pretty respectful way that I was flipped and wasn't intentionally trying to kick anyone (shouldn't have talked back, I know, but he caught me totally by surprise). There were no calls for a penalty from the other team, they didn't even think there had been anything wrong.

After the game I politely asked the referee to clarify his call (wouldn't have done that in a normal game, but this was a scrimmage). He told me that it's irrelevant what I tried to do, if my feet go high it's a red. I asked him what I was supposed to do, he told me that it was my responsibility to control my feet. I left it at that, thanked him and left, no point in arguing as it was over and done.

My question is, was the referee correct? Now I understand that it is my job to prevent injury to other players, and that intentionally kicking an opponent is a red card, but I've never heard anyone say that it's a red if your feet go high and don't actually make contact with anyone. I personally think he was wrong, I don't see how I'm supposed to somehow tuck my feet in if I just got hit. Would appreciate if anyone could clarify.

Cheers

Not something I've heard or seen but that doesn't mean it's not true . People use their feet at the ruck all the time with or without the potential of kicking someone .

I think the ref is wrong but I wouldn't bet any money on it

Hope this helps

 

[Rizuli]

Not something I've heard or seen but that doesn't mean it's not true . People use their feet at the ruck all the time with or without the potential of kicking someone .

I think the ref is wrong but I wouldn't bet any money on it

Hope this helps

Thanks for the response. It wasn't just feet in the ruck though-- I basically got table topped backwards so my feet went up to head level. I didn't actually hit anyone though, but the referee claimed that my feet reaching head level at all is grounds for a red card, regardless of fault or intent.

 

[smartcooky]

Later in the game I had a much larger guy barreling towards me. Tried the usual, low tackle and so on, but got hit hard by another player who was supporting the ball carrier (at least that's what I think happened). Either way I got hit, and with the ruck forming under me ended up falling headfirst with my feet going up in the air for a second. I wasn't illegally flipped or anything, just got beaten, it happens.

The referee stopped the game, pulled me and the captain aside and told me that "We're not even going to pretend that didn't just happen. You had your feet high at another player's head level, and could have kicked him in the face. If this was a real match I'd red card you and report you." Now at this point, I'll admit I lost my cool a little, and told him in a pretty respectful way that I was flipped and wasn't intentionally trying to kick anyone (shouldn't have talked back, I know, but he caught me totally by surprise). There were no calls for a penalty from the other team, they didn't even think there had been anything wrong.

After the game I politely asked the referee to clarify his call (wouldn't have done that in a normal game, but this was a scrimmage). He told me that it's irrelevant what I tried to do, if my feet go high it's a red. I asked him what I was supposed to do, he told me that it was my responsibility to control my feet. I left it at that, thanked him and left, no point in arguing as it was over and done.

My question is, was the referee correct? Now I understand that it is my job to prevent injury to other players, and that intentionally kicking an opponent is a red card, but I've never heard anyone say that it's a red if your feet go high and don't actually make contact with anyone. I personally think he was wrong, I don't see how I'm supposed to somehow tuck my feet in if I just got hit. Would appreciate if anyone could clarify.

Cheers

Your referee was completely wrong; it isn't even a Law of the game.

There is nothing about it in USARR Game Management Guidelines (which you can download from here). I am quite familiar with this document, and there is no mention of this, let alone anything about it being an automatic Red Card.

Sure, if you happen to by lying on your back and strike-out at an opponent with your feet, the referee could deem this to be Dangerous Play

LAW 10.4 DANGEROUS PLAY AND MISCONDUCT
[TEXTAREA](m) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/TEXTAREA]

If you did this and actually struck the player with your feet then...

[TEXTAREA](c) Kicking. A player must not kick an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/TEXTAREA]

However, if you get flipped over, its not a penalty just because your feet go high.

 

[Rich Taff]

Wow yeah, from your description of events it seems as though you were 'thrown into the blender' by a tackle or two, and (if anything) were tipped by the tackler. Really strange refereeing, especially when the ref tries to explain the reasoning. Hopefully the ref (who I'm assuming is an amateur as well) will learn from the situation if it's been recorded.

 

[Rizuli]

Your referee was completely wrong; it isn't even a Law of the game.

There is nothing about it in USARR Game Management Guidelines (which you can download from here). I am quite familiar with this document, and there is no mention of this, let alone anything about it being an automatic Red Card.

Sure, if you happen to by lying on your back and strike-out at an opponent with your feet, the referee could deem this to be Dangerous Play

LAW 10.4 DANGEROUS PLAY AND MISCONDUCT
[TEXTAREA](m) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/TEXTAREA]

If you did this and actually struck the player with your feet then...

[TEXTAREA](c) Kicking. A player must not kick an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/TEXTAREA]

However, if you get flipped over, its not a penalty just because your feet go high.

Brilliant response. Thanks for clearing it up. I'll admit it didn't help that I tried to debate him, which was my fault, but it seemed like a strange call.

And rich, I would expect the same, but in this case I was the tackler. I'm not sure how I ended up in the air -- pretty sure I latched on to the guy and was hit by another opponent back over the top of my teammate who was coming in low to help with the tackle. Wasn't the fault of the other team, tipping me was purely accidental.

Cheers for the responses.

 

[smartcooky]

Brilliant response. Thanks for clearing it up. I'll admit it didn't help that I tried to debate him, which was my fault, but it seemed like a strange call.

And rich, I would expect the same, but in this case I was the tackler. I'm not sure how I ended up in the air -- pretty sure I latched on to the guy and was hit by another opponent back over the top of my teammate who was coming in low to help with the tackle. Wasn't the fault of the other team, tipping me was purely accidental.

Cheers for the responses.

No problem.

If you are playing regularly in the USA, it might pay you to read those USARR Guidelines. If you know what referees are looking for, it might help to avoid crossing them.

Of course, they wont help if you encounter a referee who's making stuff up as he goes!!

 

[Rizuli]

No problem.

If you are playing regularly in the USA, it might pay you to read those USARR Guidelines. If you know what referees are looking for, it might help to avoid crossing them.

Of course, they wont help if you encounter a referee who's making stuff up as he goes!!

I'll be sure to have a good look at those. I'm a pretty experienced referee in football/soccer, so I try to be as understanding as possible with referees (especially considering this guy lacked proper touch judges). You can't see everything, and your interpretation of some of the more subjective rules might not always be the same as mine, fair enough. However, I also tend to figure that if I can memorize the whole FIFA law book, a referee should know their's as well. What got to me about this guy was how bloody annoyed he acted with me ("We're not even going to pretend that didn't happen" seems more fitting for a blatant high tackle or a punch, not for falling on your arse and accidentally kicking your feet up), and his certainty in enforcing a rule that, as you said, he made up as he went.


But oh well, over and done, thanks for the help.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

While we are clarifying things can some explain when you have to let a player up off the floor and when you don't?

I've played for years and if a player drops on a kick I always though you had to let them up....but I'd a player is on the floor from other reasons with the ball do you have to let them up or can you go straight over to pinch the ball?

 

[smartcooky]

While we are clarifying things can some explain when you have to let a player up off the floor and when you don't?

I've played for years and if a player drops on a kick I always though you had to let them up....but I'd a player is on the floor from other reasons with the ball do you have to let them up or can you go straight over to pinch the ball?

"You have got to let him up!" is one probably the most often repeated myths in the game. It does not help when supposedly experienced referees tell players this.

Its wrong!

The situation is covered in Law 14 Ball on the Ground - No Tackle

[TEXTAREA]DEFINITIONS
This situation occurs when the ball is available on the ground and a player goes to ground to gather the ball, except immediately after a scrum or a ruck.
It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has not been tackled.
The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet.
A player must not make the ball unplayable by falling down. Unplayable means that the ball is not immediately available to either team so that play may continue.
A player who makes the ball unplayable, or who obstructs the opposing team by falling down, is negating the purpose and Spirit of the Game and must be penalised.
A player who is not tackled, but who goes to ground while holding the ball, or a player who goes to ground and gathers the ball, must act immediately.
[/TEXTAREA]

Where a lot of people get confused is in the first section of this Law, that deals with the rights an obligations of the player who went to ground to gather the ball

[TEXTAREA]14.1 PLAYERS ON THE GROUND

(a) A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:
• Get up with the ball
• Pass the ball
• Release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(b) A player who passes or releases the ball must also get up or move away from it at once.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(c) A player without the ball must not lie on, over, or near the ball to prevent opponents getting possession of it.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(d) A player on the ground must not tackle or attempt to tackle an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/TEXTAREA]

Just because one of the options available to the player on the ground is to get up with the ball does not mean that his opponents are obliged to let him get up.

[TEXTAREA]14.2 PLAYERS ON THEIR FEET

(a) Falling over the player on the ground with the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over a player with the ball who is lying on the ground.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(b) Falling over players lying on the ground near the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over players lying on the ground with the ball between them or near them.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/TEXTAREA]

In summary,

When the ball is loose on the ground and a player goes to ground to gather the ball, or
When a player goes to ground with the ball without being tackled, e.g. slipped or ankle tapped

The Player must
1. Do one of three things; get up with the ball, pass it or release it
2. Move away
3. Immediately release if an opponent on his feet grabs the ball

The Player Must not
1. Lie on top of the ball
2. Do anything to prevent an opponent on his feet from taking the ball
3. Hold or tackle an opponent who takes the ball.

Other players who are on their feet may
1. Take the ball from the player on the ground, from any direction (there is no gate)

Other players must not
1. Go off their feet to take the ball
2. Fall on top of the player or the ball
3. Fall on top of other players on the ground

Law 14 is one of the shortest and simplest Laws in the book, yet is is one of the most often misunderstood ones.

ETA: Rugbyrefs.com has a wiki page with an article on some of the Rugby's more common Law Myths

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/wiki/index.php/The_good,_the_bad_&_the_referee#Article_No._7_.28Myths.29