Questions about NZ rugby from afar

Discussion in 'International Test Matches' started by wayner, Aug 5, 2009.

  1. wayner

    wayner Guest

    Hi there - I am a new forum member from Canada who watches a lot of rugby including S14 and 3Nations that we get here in Canada on Setanta Sports. I am an All Black supporter but since I live so far away from NZ I don't understand some issues so perhaps some kiwis could enlighten me.

    Why does NZ (and for that matter Aus and SA) require players to play at home to be eligible for the national team? Isn't this an overly protectionist policy? It's not like the Brazilian soccer team requires their guys to stay at home to make the team (I think it is quite possible that none of them play in Brazil), nor does Germany not pick Dirk Nowitzki for its national basketball team because he plays in the NBA. Is there even a debate about this in NZ? From a North American perspective this seems rather weird - ice hockey is the most popular sport in Canada and many of the players in the NHL, with teams in Canada and the US, are from Russia, Sweden, etc. and they play for their national teams.

    How many of the All Blacks were born and raised in NZ? Are Rokocoko and Sivivatu New Zealanders - weren't they born in Fiji? If they are Fijians then is it fair to a tiny country like Fiji to cherry pick their best players? Are there other Pacific Islanders on the ABs?

    What is the difference between S14 and ANZ Cup teams? There was a Wellington vs. Otago game on this past weekend - is this the same teams that play in S14 with the exception of the ABs?

    Do the S14 teams only have New Zealanders, Australians and South Africans or do they allow players from other countries to help develop the game around the world? I know there is one American who plays in South Africa but is that it?

    From my perspective it looks like the purpose of S14 is to provide a feeder system for the national teams of the TriNations rather than having teams try to compete to be the best team in the world, or even the SANZAR region. Is that correct? Why don't these teams try to attract players from the Northern Hemisphere or from Argentina - or can they just not compete financially?

    Finally - I hope to be visiting NZ for the RWC in 2011 to support Canada including a game between Canada and the ABs in Wellington. Any advice on must-see sites in NZ?
     
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  3. InsaneAsylum

    InsaneAsylum Guest

    Hi there - I am a new forum member from Canada who watches a lot of rugby including S14 and 3Nations that we get here in Canada on Setanta Sports. I am an All Black supporter but since I live so far away from NZ I don't understand some issues so perhaps some kiwis could enlighten me. I'm not kiwi, i'm very similar... I just don't have a funny accent and get angry when the all blacks lose or if can't have my way with a sheep.

    Why does NZ (and for that matter Aus and SA) require players to play at home to be eligible for the national team? Isn't this an overly protectionist policy? It's not like the Brazilian soccer team requires their guys to stay at home to make the team (I think it is quite possible that none of them play in Brazil), nor does Germany not pick Dirk Nowitzki for its national basketball team because he plays in the NBA. Is there even a debate about this in NZ? From a North American perspective this seems rather weird - ice hockey is the most popular sport in Canada and many of the players in the NHL, with teams in Canada and the US, are from Russia, Sweden, etc. and they play for their national teams. can't answer that, but i think it's a good idea. it will stop freeloaders from pimping themselves out.

    How many of the All Blacks were born and raised in NZ? Are Rokocoko and Sivivatu New Zealanders - weren't they born in Fiji? If they are Fijians then is it fair to a tiny country like Fiji to cherry pick their best players? Are there other Pacific Islanders on the ABs? no idea, i think they lived in nz and then played test rugby for nz so they're now all blacks. i guess it's like quade cooper and james o'connor for the wallabies, they were both eligible to play for nz and australia.

    What is the difference between S14 and ANZ Cup teams? There was a Wellington vs. Otago game on this past weekend - is this the same teams that play in S14 with the exception of the ABs? s14 teams are made up of several provincial (anz cup teams) for instance, i think the chiefs are made up of waikato, bay of plenty and some other anz cup team. any of those provinces players can get called into the chiefs squad for s14.

    Do the S14 teams only have New Zealanders, Australians and South Africans or do they allow players from other countries to help develop the game around the world? I know there is one American who plays in South Africa but is that it? this was the case up until this years s14, rules have now been dropped so that super14 teams can have foreigners in them. not sure if you noticed former all black openside daniel braid playing for the reds.

    From my perspective it looks like the purpose of S14 is to provide a feeder system for the national teams of the TriNations rather than having teams try to compete to be the best team in the world, or even the SANZAR region. Is that correct? Why don't these teams try to attract players from the Northern Hemisphere or from Argentina - or can they just not compete financially? it will happen very soon if it hasn't already happened... i believe michelak played for the sharks in s14

    Finally - I hope to be visiting NZ for the RWC in 2011 to support Canada including a game between Canada and the ABs in Wellington. Any advice on must-see sites in NZ? when in wellington, do not go to the nightclub called "Pound"
     
  4. C A Iversen

    C A Iversen Guest

    Hi there - I am a new forum member from Canada who watches a lot of rugby including S14 and 3Nations that we get here in Canada on Setanta Sports. I am an All Black supporter but since I live so far away from NZ I don't understand some issues so perhaps some kiwis could enlighten me.

    Why does NZ (and for that matter Aus and SA) require players to play at home to be eligible for the national team? Isn't this an overly protectionist policy? It's not like the Brazilian soccer team requires their guys to stay at home to make the team (I think it is quite possible that none of them play in Brazil), nor does Germany not pick Dirk Nowitzki for its national basketball team because he plays in the NBA. Is there even a debate about this in NZ? From a North American perspective this seems rather weird - ice hockey is the most popular sport in Canada and many of the players in the NHL, with teams in Canada and the US, are from Russia, Sweden, etc. and they play for their national teams.

    Well here we go again, again. There is actually a very logical reason for this. We want our national game to survive, flourish and continue to be one of the strongest brands in world rugby. If we allowed players to take off overseas as soon as they'd developed any ability or worn the All Black jersey a couple of times, they would. For the money. People always do this. Then our domestic competitions would suffer as those players would not be available. Our game would wither, having a national population of just over 4 million, we can't just grow more players on trees. The only incentive we have to keep some players at home is the honour of playing for the All Blacks. So forgive us for being "protectionist", but New Zealand doesn't have the population of a country like Canada to sustain this situation.

    How many of the All Blacks were born and raised in NZ? Are Rokocoko and Sivivatu New Zealanders - weren't they born in Fiji? If they are Fijians then is it fair to a tiny country like Fiji to cherry pick their best players? Are there other Pacific Islanders on the ABs?

    The answer? Nearly all of them. Mils Muliaina, Conrad Smith, Ma'a Nonu, Luke McAlister, Stephen Donald, Dan Carter, Jimmy Cowan, Brad thorn, Richie McCaw, Ali Williams, Isaac Ross, Tony Woodcock, Keven Mealamu, Andrew Hore, Jason Eaton. Just for starters. Yes there are some who have come from the islands. I've got news for you, it's pretty insulting to say that we "cherry pick" players like Sivivatu and Rokocoko. No-one asked their families to move to New Zealand. The see it as a great honour to play for our national team. Sivivatu came to New Zealand at 15, Joe Rokocoko came to New Zealand at 5. At 15 Sivivatu, had natural ability, which wasn't yet honed. I guess Joe Rokocoko was "cherry picked" very, very early.

    What is the difference between S14 and ANZ Cup teams? There was a Wellington vs. Otago game on this past weekend - is this the same teams that play in S14 with the exception of the ABs?

    The S14 sides are a more professional international competition, the Air New Zealand Cup is our national provincial competition.

    Do the S14 teams only have New Zealanders, Australians and South Africans or do they allow players from other countries to help develop the game around the world? I know there is one American who plays in South Africa but is that it?

    They allow other players in now, but players of any note aside from the established nations in the rest of the world are few and far between. Also, most of the Tri-Nations prefer to foster their own talent.

    From my perspective it looks like the purpose of S14 is to provide a feeder system for the national teams of the TriNations rather than having teams try to compete to be the best team in the world, or even the SANZAR region. Is that correct? Why don't these teams try to attract players from the Northern Hemisphere or from Argentina - or can they just not compete financially?

    Partly they can't compete financially, partly they want to develop their own local talent. It's what keeps our international and domestic games strong.

    Finally - I hope to be visiting NZ for the RWC in 2011 to support Canada including a game between Canada and the ABs in Wellington. Any advice on must-see sites in NZ?

    First must see thing would be a little less critical view of New Zealand rugby please. It's not all stealing talent and skills and being unfair to the rest of the world.
     
  5. Flux

    Flux Guest

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wayner @ Aug 5 2009, 02:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
     
  6. William18

    William18 Guest

    Jesus, Ca Iversen, no need to rip into him like that. He is just asking questions.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hi there - I am a new forum member from Canada who watches a lot of rugby including S14 and 3Nations that we get here in Canada on Setanta Sports. I am an All Black supporter but since I live so far away from NZ I don't understand some issues so perhaps some kiwis could enlighten me.

    Why does NZ (and for that matter Aus and SA) require players to play at home to be eligible for the national team? Isn't this an overly protectionist policy? It's not like the Brazilian soccer team requires their guys to stay at home to make the team (I think it is quite possible that none of them play in Brazil), nor does Germany not pick Dirk Nowitzki for its national basketball team because he plays in the NBA. Is there even a debate about this in NZ? From a North American perspective this seems rather weird - ice hockey is the most popular sport in Canada and many of the players in the NHL, with teams in Canada and the US, are from Russia, Sweden, etc. and they play for their national teams.

    There is some debate over it in New Zealand. Most people are in agreement, however. They want their players in New Zealand. Young players need people to look up to. For instance, Hurricanes Super 14 players go around all of the Wellington schools to provide coaching advice, how could they do that if they wern't even in the country? We do not want to lose our players and want to protect the Super 14 and ANZ Cup.

    How many of the All Blacks were born and raised in NZ? Are Rokocoko and Sivivatu New Zealanders - weren't they born in Fiji? If they are Fijians then is it fair to a tiny country like Fiji to cherry pick their best players? Are there other Pacific Islanders on the ABs?

    Island culture is New Zealand culture. There are ethnicities which have more of their population living in New Zealand then on their home island. New Zealand opens its door to these people so they can have better educations and futures. This costs money and resources. Most of those players will want to re pay the country which game them so many opportunities. Most of these players come to the country when they are exceptionally young anyway. Just because some one looks like an islander, does not mean they are not a New Zealander. Samoans,Tongans and Fijians are all over New Zealand in large numbers.


    What is the difference between S14 and ANZ Cup teams? There was a Wellington vs. Otago game on this past weekend - is this the same teams that play in S14 with the exception of the ABs?

    The top ANZ Cup sides have teams which largely mirror Super 14 outfits. The other ANZ Cup teams rely on getting young players from within their province.

    Do the S14 teams only have New Zealanders, Australians and South Africans or do they allow players from other countries to help develop the game around the world? I know there is one American who plays in South Africa but is that it?

    I don't really see why any one would choose to play Super 14 in New Zealand. The pay is low and it is hardly illustrious.

    From my perspective it looks like the purpose of S14 is to provide a feeder system for the national teams of the TriNations rather than having teams try to compete to be the best team in the world, or even the SANZAR region. Is that correct? Why don't these teams try to attract players from the Northern Hemisphere or from Argentina - or can they just not compete financially?

    Rugby in New Zealand is based around the internations sides. Over in America, the sport is generally just in a few countries so is more club orientated. That's not to say the Super 14 sides don't try hard to win the S14.

    Finally - I hope to be visiting NZ for the RWC in 2011 to support Canada including a game between Canada and the ABs in Wellington. Any advice on must-see sites in NZ?

    Make sure you see a lot of it. Wellington is a nice place but not the most interesting. Often the best places are where other people don't really go. I wouldn't be drawn to where all the other tourists are.
     
  7. Nickdnz

    Nickdnz Guest

    Nothing much new to add to the others but...
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wayner @ Aug 5 2009, 02:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
     
  8. gingergenius

    gingergenius Guest

    The question about islanders in the NZ team is long exhausted. The NZ team does nothing different to other nations in terms of picking players like Sivivatu or Lauaki who have strong links to another country. In England - Kevin Pietersen, Mike Catt, Graeme Hick, Michael Lipman, Maurie Fa'asavalu, Riki Flutey, Lesley Vainikolo and Lennox Lewis are all sportsmen we've had who certainly haven't had an English accent, apart from anything else.

    As for the others who have Islander families/ are born on the islands... well, NZ and Australia are the big economic centres for the Southern Pacific, and so attract immigrants. Islanders playing for NZ is no different to the players from West Africa, Caribbean and Subcontinent who represent England at sports, or for that matter, the ones from France's former colonies playing for them.
     
  9. wayner

    wayner Guest

    Sorry folks - I am not trying to insult New Zealanders - I love rugby and the All Blacks are my favourite team because I love the exciting style of rugby that they play. As a former player and as a fan I look to NZ as the "mother country" of rugby where the sport is the unequivocal number one sport. My favourite player of all time is Lomu and I love watching guys like Richie McCaw play the game.

    It is just that the perspective from North America is a bit different as international sports are less important than winning club championships, even though some of our sports, such as basketball and ice hockey, are now very global. We have many European and American ice hockey players who come to Canada as teenagers to hone their skills - the best ones stay on to play professional hockey but still represent their native country (i.e. Russia) in international competitions. And many Canadians play ice hockey for the nation of their parents, just as I believe there are New Zealanders/Aussies/South Africans playing rugby for Scotland, Canada, USA, Italy, etc. From a North American perspective it seems overly restrictive to enforce national team players to play domestically so I want to understand the rationale for doing so - and what is mentioned above makes sense. And the most global sport that pretty much everyone is familiar with - soccer - doesn't seem to have these restrictions.

    Brazil is an example of a country where the national soccer team manages to thrive even though very few, if any, of the national team players play on domestic teams. Perhaps the difference between NZ and Brazil is that Brazil has 180 million people and is therefore much bigger than New Zealand, and even SA and Aus.

    If a player moves over to England or NZ or Aus as a child then I don't have a problem with them playing for their adopted country. If they move over from a rugby minnow (and by this I mean any country other than the 3 or 6 Nations) at 15 or 16 to attend a school to improve their rugby skills and then play for England or the ABs or Wallabies then I think that is somewhat unfair to the player's native country and detrimental to the development of rugby as a whole since you are weakening a team, like Fiji, that struggles to be in the top 10 rankings in the game. I think the example cited for soccer is somewhat different since there are dozens of countries that are competitive in soccer. In rugby I would only give 7 countries a realistic chance to win the next RWC (perhaps I am being charitable to Ireland and Wales in grouping them with the TriNations, England and France) - that is not enough and this situation is getting worse rather than better and rugby will not grow as a global game as a consequence.

    Maybe you folks from the traditional rugby powers don't understand this but it is frustrating as a Canadian to see the competitiveness of our national rugby team fall back, even though we are not necessarilly dropping in terms of our international ranking. It just seems that the gulf between the 3Nations, England, France, Ireland, Wales and the rest of the world seems to be widening (Argentina is a notable exception) and I am questioning whether this movement of players is making it worse.

    There is a bitter example of losing a prospective teenager in Canadian soccer. Owen Hargreaves was born and raised in Canada but plays for England in soccer - he left the country at 16 for Bayern Munich in Germany and is eligible for England because his parents are English - even though he didn't even play for a club based in England (at least not when he first played for England). Canada has only once qualified for the soccer world cup - it would sure help if we had Hargreaves on our side.

    Similarly if Daniel Carter or Richie McCaw had been born and raised in Canada or the US to New Zealand parents and went to NZ to develop his rugby skills and stayed to play for the ABs then I don't think that is right and I think that would hurt the growth of the game.

    By the way - how do the NH club teams afford the salaries to lure players from the SH? When I watch the Guiness Premiership (or Magners) games the crowds seems very sparse - they can't be making much money from attendance. Do they get lots of money from TV rights? Do they make it all from Heineken Cup? Is the TV revenue at risk or dropping?

    And by the way GingerGenious - Lennox Lewis is Canadian - as is Greg Rusedski.

    p.s. Didn't some former ABs play for Japan in a RWC in the past? They have since changed the rules, haven't they?
     
  10. InsaneAsylum

    InsaneAsylum Guest

    that was Bachop i believe
     
  11. C A Iversen

    C A Iversen Guest

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (William18 @ Aug 5 2009, 08:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
    He gave pointed questions I gave pointed answers. His questions inferred negative things about New Zealands policies, I inferred negative things about his argument. I'm not giving him, you or anyone else a bath time back scrub, if I ripped into him or anyone, they'd know about it. :)

    Sick of being told what to say and how to say it. Every time I point out what someone else says when they're negative, I hear "This is the internet - harden up". No-one was there supporting me in arguments with Logorrhea or Teh Mite or anyone else.

    If I need to take caution with how I treat others, then I'm sure when I get shot down by others there'll be people sticking up for me? Ummmmm, no. Hasn't happened yet.

    I'm glad Wayner has a second post that is worded in a much fairer way, and good on him for that. I'll certainly give the guy credit for that post any day. The first one was full of suggestion or implication that our Tri-Nations, S14 comps & selection policies were in some way deficient or inconsiderate. It may not have been the intention, but that was how it was worded.
     
  12. Nickdnz

    Nickdnz Guest

    Wayner, I can understand your argument that a more global game would benefit rugby more, and many countries would agree, and therefore their policies allow players to play in other competitions over seas, for alot of money, and it may even strengthen the game as a whole. However if that happened, New Zealand would stop being able to compete a the level we are because we can not compete financially and all players that we build and have potential, would be payed more playing overseas then in New Zealand. Sorry if it is frustrating but it is nessacery for NZ to remain such a great rugby nation.
     
  13. candybum

    candybum Guest

    Yup, if players were able to play overseas and still be eligible for the ABs, all our top player's would go elsewhere and the NZ rugby comps would be stink sad to say.
     
  14. Flux

    Flux Guest

    Unless we brought in private ownership. But even then, a New Zealand millionaire wouldn't size up against those in the NH.
     
  15. TRUE LEGND

    TRUE LEGND Guest

    If we brought in a law stating Every player plays for the country they were born in. You would find most of the Island teams would be without players because 80 to 90% of there players are born in NZ or Australia
     
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