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Riki Flutey

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Thingimubob

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Riki Flutey is un-doubtably a class player, and a superb 12 who does have a decent shot at touring with the Lions in the summer. But it just makes me wonder whether he should be going or not, considering he's not actually English. I mean I guess there's not much of an arguement when it comes to him playing for england, because that's teh RFU's decision and no-one elses, but there's 3 other unions and sets of fans involved who may feel hard done by that a New Zealand born 'Englishman' is being picked ahead of their centres. I might be looking a bit too far into this, because for all I know they won't care because it's less likely that their star centre doesn't pick up an injury if Flutey is picked. My personal opinion is that he is a very good player, and would be useful for the Lions, but it wouldn't make much sense to me if he playes for them, when he played against them for Wellington in the 2005 tour. Can't say any other player has been in a position to play for the Lions after playing against them, so this situation is a bit unique.

What's everyone else's opinion?
 
If he's eligible for England, he's eligible for the Lions. No more to say really! He was probably the form 12 in the 6 nations and has therefore earned his place, and considering Henson just picked up another injury, that's him out of the running, so I'd say Flutey's certain to tour.
 
I think it's a mockery of the system that he should get to play. The fact he's going to play in France next season is an insult to his adopted country and club and shows a lack of commitment.

Though on the other side of the coin, who else can we pick?
Henson? Out of form and injured.
D'Arcy? Not at his best.
Roberts? His game at 12 appears limited at the moment...

Flutey was certainly the best 12 in the tournament, though not really saying much, so I think it's the case that the Lions will probably need him, rather than want him...
 
should he be eligible for england if he has previously played for the New Zealand Maoris ?

also should he be eligible for the Lions if he has played against the Lions for the New Zealand Maoris.


Henson and D'Arcy are far better players and will get selected ahead of Flutey. I agree that Flutey has a great eye for a break but that is it.

Henson and D'Arcy both have kicking games, a superb passing game and can manage a defensive system.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GimleyUK @ Mar 30 2009, 12:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
should he be eligible for england if he has previously played for the New Zealand Maoris ?

also should he be eligible for the Lions if he has played against the Lions for the New Zealand Maoris.


Henson and D'Arcy are far better players and will get selected ahead of Flutey. I agree that Flutey has a great eye for a break but that is it.

Henson and D'Arcy both have kicking games, a superb passing game and can manage a defensive system.[/b]
Click to expand...

I had a look at he match report from when the lions played the Nz Maori's, and he didn't play for them in that match. link =====> Lions 13 - 19 NZ Maori

Henson might be out which is the only problem, D'Arcy is also class, and has a very good partnership with O'Driscoll already, but I'm interested to see a Roberts - O'Driscoll centre partnership, could be effective.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thingimubob @ Mar 30 2009, 12:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Riki Flutey is un-doubtably a class player, and a superb 12 who does have a decent shot at touring with the Lions in the summer. But it just makes me wonder whether he should be going or not, considering he's not actually English. I mean I guess there's not much of an arguement when it comes to him playing for england, because that's teh RFU's decision and no-one elses, but there's 3 other unions and sets of fans involved who may feel hard done by that a New Zealand born 'Englishman' is being picked ahead of their centres. I might be looking a bit too far into this, because for all I know they won't care because it's less likely that their star centre doesn't pick up an injury if Flutey is picked. My personal opinion is that he is a very good player, and would be useful for the Lions, but it wouldn't make much sense to me if he playes for them, when he played against them for Wellington in the 2005 tour. Can't say any other player has been in a position to play for the Lions after playing against them, so this situation is a bit unique.

What's everyone else's opinion?[/b]
Click to expand...

Sivivatu has played for and against the All Blacks at International level. So has Lauaki.

As I see it, the Lions is picked from players eligible for England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Flutey is eligible for England. It's not the Lions' job to worry about the nationality debate.

If you disagree with whether he should be eligible for England, I'll point to some other players who nobody questioned playing for their home nations... Thom Evans, born in Zimbabwe, brought up and educated in England, played for England at all agegroup levels; Rob Henderson was a 2001 Lion... born and brought up in England.

Or if we want to argue about the non-British born ones:
Nathan Hines, born in Australia, played RL in Australia before moving to Scotland.
Brent Cockbain toured in 2005; he first played in Wales in 2003 and his brother played for Australia.

Nationality in rugby has always been a dodgy issue; before the professional game players switched nationalities, and so you get the situation where the likes of Shane Howarth play international rugby for New Zealand and Wales. Or you get situations where half the Samoan team are New Zealanders, or if you think of Sivivatu, Rokocoko, Tuqiri.... then you have Mtawarira, Mujati and Chavhanga who are all recent Springboks who were born and educated in Zimbabwe.

If you're going to make an argument about Flutey's nationality then you have to take down at least 20 others from around the world who are playing for different countries.
 
He might.

I don't want him to, he's made money representing NZ no doubt as a NZ Maori...he's not of the British Isles, he's here on residency, it's not fair to the other players. This should not be, what's next? French players playing in it because they've been in the country long enough playing for a side in the UK?

Not fair.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Mar 30 2009, 12:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thingimubob @ Mar 30 2009, 12:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Click to expand...
Riki Flutey is un-doubtably a class player, and a superb 12 who does have a decent shot at touring with the Lions in the summer. But it just makes me wonder whether he should be going or not, considering he's not actually English. I mean I guess there's not much of an arguement when it comes to him playing for england, because that's teh RFU's decision and no-one elses, but there's 3 other unions and sets of fans involved who may feel hard done by that a New Zealand born 'Englishman' is being picked ahead of their centres. I might be looking a bit too far into this, because for all I know they won't care because it's less likely that their star centre doesn't pick up an injury if Flutey is picked. My personal opinion is that he is a very good player, and would be useful for the Lions, but it wouldn't make much sense to me if he playes for them, when he played against them for Wellington in the 2005 tour. Can't say any other player has been in a position to play for the Lions after playing against them, so this situation is a bit unique.

What's everyone else's opinion?[/b]
Click to expand...

Sivivatu has played for and against the All Blacks at International level. So has Lauaki.

As I see it, the Lions is picked from players eligible for England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Flutey is eligible for England. It's not the Lions' job to worry about the nationality debate.

If you disagree with whether he should be eligible for England, I'll point to some other players who nobody questioned playing for their home nations... Thom Evans, born in Zimbabwe, brought up and educated in England, played for England at all agegroup levels; Rob Henderson was a 2001 Lion... born and brought up in England.

Or if we want to argue about the non-British born ones:
Nathan Hines, born in Australia, played RL in Australia before moving to Scotland.
Brent Cockbain toured in 2005; he first played in Wales in 2003 and his brother played for Australia.

Nationality in rugby has always been a dodgy issue; before the professional game players switched nationalities, and so you get the situation where the likes of Shane Howarth play international rugby for New Zealand and Wales. Or you get situations where half the Samoan team are New Zealanders, or if you think of Sivivatu, Rokocoko, Tuqiri.... then you have Mtawarira, Mujati and Chavhanga who are all recent Springboks who were born and educated in Zimbabwe.

If you're going to make an argument about Flutey's nationality then you have to take down at least 20 others from around the world who are playing for different countries.
[/b][/quote]

tbf, Brent Cockbain and Matt Coackbain could have played for either Wales or Australia as I think at least one of their parents are Welsh (you expect it with a name like Brent). I;m not argueing his English eligability, as that's been done and gone, just should it extend to the Lions? especially considering he played against them, and I know players like Sivivatu have played against NZ, but it's a bit different for me with the Lions, because Sivivatu played for the P[acific Islanders in a friendly right? The Lions is a huge thing, which every British and Irish player aspires to, so it's just a strange that a New Zealander in now eligble, which is differend to Henderson, who'd have been eligable anyway, if he'd stayed in England.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thingimubob @ Mar 30 2009, 01:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Mar 30 2009, 12:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Click to expand...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thingimubob @ Mar 30 2009, 12:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Click to expand...
Riki Flutey is un-doubtably a class player, and a superb 12 who does have a decent shot at touring with the Lions in the summer. But it just makes me wonder whether he should be going or not, considering he's not actually English. I mean I guess there's not much of an arguement when it comes to him playing for england, because that's teh RFU's decision and no-one elses, but there's 3 other unions and sets of fans involved who may feel hard done by that a New Zealand born 'Englishman' is being picked ahead of their centres. I might be looking a bit too far into this, because for all I know they won't care because it's less likely that their star centre doesn't pick up an injury if Flutey is picked. My personal opinion is that he is a very good player, and would be useful for the Lions, but it wouldn't make much sense to me if he playes for them, when he played against them for Wellington in the 2005 tour. Can't say any other player has been in a position to play for the Lions after playing against them, so this situation is a bit unique.

What's everyone else's opinion?[/b]
Click to expand...

Sivivatu has played for and against the All Blacks at International level. So has Lauaki.

As I see it, the Lions is picked from players eligible for England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Flutey is eligible for England. It's not the Lions' job to worry about the nationality debate.

If you disagree with whether he should be eligible for England, I'll point to some other players who nobody questioned playing for their home nations... Thom Evans, born in Zimbabwe, brought up and educated in England, played for England at all agegroup levels; Rob Henderson was a 2001 Lion... born and brought up in England.

Or if we want to argue about the non-British born ones:
Nathan Hines, born in Australia, played RL in Australia before moving to Scotland.
Brent Cockbain toured in 2005; he first played in Wales in 2003 and his brother played for Australia.

Nationality in rugby has always been a dodgy issue; before the professional game players switched nationalities, and so you get the situation where the likes of Shane Howarth play international rugby for New Zealand and Wales. Or you get situations where half the Samoan team are New Zealanders, or if you think of Sivivatu, Rokocoko, Tuqiri.... then you have Mtawarira, Mujati and Chavhanga who are all recent Springboks who were born and educated in Zimbabwe.

If you're going to make an argument about Flutey's nationality then you have to take down at least 20 others from around the world who are playing for different countries.
[/b][/quote]

tbf, Brent Cockbain and Matt Coackbain could have played for either Wales or Australia as I think at least one of their parents are Welsh (you expect it with a name like Brent). I;m not argueing his English eligability, as that's been done and gone, just should it extend to the Lions? especially considering he played against them, and I know players like Sivivatu have played against NZ, but it's a bit different for me with the Lions, because Sivivatu played for the P[acific Islanders in a friendly right? The Lions is a huge thing, which every British and Irish player aspires to, so it's just a strange that a New Zealander in now eligble, which is differend to Henderson, who'd have been eligable anyway, if he'd stayed in England.
[/b][/quote]

The Pacific Islanders are practically the same as the Lions, but with less tradition.

As I said before, the Lions pick players from the pool of British-qualified players. Flutey's in that pool. I don't see how it's unfair on the other players, because it's their fault for not being good enough if they don't make the squad, not Flutey's for being a Kiwi. It doesn't make a mockery of the system, because the system's already been made a mockery of by hundreds of players before.

I suspect the reason that Flutey is receiving particular attention is because he's the first capable of making the Test side. Speedy's analysis of the 12 options is spot on.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Mar 29 2009, 11:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
If he's eligible for England, he's eligible for the Lions. No more to say really![/b]
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. I have no problems with Flutey touring. He is British, he has come here and earnt the right to hold residency and soon full citizenship.

What are we now? Japan? Does he have to submit a blood sample so we can ascertain any Celtic, Norman, Roman, Saxon or Viking traits? Are we going to measure his nose, check the colour gradient of his hair and check the frame of his face to make sure it matches pre-approved tags of "Britishness"?

No. We're not, we're going to say "nice one Riki, you're on the plane, see you on Durban." I am very nervous about this whole nationality debate and I think it is very patronising as it indicates that players who come over and genuinely believe in something and fight to get citizenship to buy into a nation aren't "real" citizens. This is especially patronising to those who play for America. Will Sir Speedy be moaning about American winger Takudzwa Ngwenya if he skins Shane Williams in a future Wales - USA fixture? After all, he's not really American, he's Zimbabwean! OMG HAX!

EDIT: Ergo, what we, fans of the top ten nations are saying in a pretty arrogant and aloof manner is that if you can't grow your own players then your team is simply a mickey mouse team made up of mercenaries and opportunists. I apologise to Nate on behalf of us as the facts show that this is simply not true.

Like I said, I find this whole debate very uncomfortable and unsavoury. If you want to pick holes in Flutey, pick it in his form or his playing style, heck even his age. But lets not get into something which just ever so slightly reeks of xenophobia.

EDIT: May I add that there are multiple players from Scotland and England playing in France and one from Wales playing in Italy. Should they be discounted from Lions contention simply because they don't ply their trade in their home league? Of course not, the whole thing is absurd and if anyone argues, I call on Steve-o to quote my old quote from the labour market in rugby..
 
I agree with the whole if he is elgibile for England he should be eligible to the Lions sentiment. He isn't really English, however. The All Blacks could do the same thing with Michael Witt who is basically an Australian so I guess everyone does it. I find it funny that you need to pick him. I am not having a go at Britain at all but he was just an average player for Wellington.
 
I think Riki Flukey will be going. If he has a passport, then he is English and he's eligible. He is as English as Lesley Vainikolo, Matt Stevens and Simon Shaw, but that does not really matter. When they are on the field, they are Lions.

If certain players had played for their birth nation, then even the boks, wallabies and all blacks would significantly be affected. In basketball, for example, a good percentage of americans (the import of choice usually) will stay in an EU country like England for 4 seasons to obtain the passport. Then they move to a bigger EU basketball country to earn a nice salary, such as Spain or Italy. I think Flutey just saw euros in front of him when Brive came asking and he went for it. Can't blame him, but it is a slap in the face.

This aside, he is eligible so you take who's qualified.
 
I think the Lions will take the best eligible players, I highly doubt they'll tackle complicated nationality issues. For that reason, I think Flutey will tour, although this season hasn't been vintage for 12's, I don't think he's the strongest option.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fa'atau82 @ Mar 30 2009, 08:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I think Riki Flukey will be going. If he has a passport, then he is English and he's eligible. He is as English as Lesley Vainikolo, Matt Stevens and Simon Shaw, but that does not really matter.[/b]
Click to expand...

Thats another thing, the double standards here is both worrying and appaling. I mean, come on guys we've encouraged people like Dan Parks, Brent Cockbain, not to mention all of England's South African imports come to the UK to make a living. Why aren't we judging them like we seem to be judging the likes of Vainikolo and Flutey?

We're treading a very, very fine line here, gents.
 
Why would we have a problem with a foreign born player and not have a problem with a foreign born coach? Seems a bit contradictory to look at Flutey and not at Gatland (or any other foreign coaches past and present).

Anyhoo, both of whom I couldnt care less about. As I said before, if the English say he's English enough, then that will do me fine (once he doesnt get capped! if he does there will be hell to pay I tell you .................... )
 
Gonna echo what most are saying, Flutey is an English international so is rightfully qualified to play for the Lions.
I think alot of rugby fans (including myself) are sad to see tradition go. We're only 14 years into professionalism and there's already a situation like this! Tradition has slowly been slipping out of rugby for awhile now, this is just a new 'milestone' in the professional era. One can argue the traditional image of the Lions has changed as well. When Lions tours 1st started the context of the tours were much different from recent tours. Colonies vs The Empire, is no more.

Denying him a Lions jersey, and subsequently denying him his lively hood, based on his heritage is bordering on xenophobia. In fact it is xenophobia. As Presty says, people are treading a fine line here.
 
Ultimately, our history dictates that we're always going to have 'impure', for want of a much better word, people playing for us (and that's us as in England or the Lions). For me, if any of our colonialist cousins want to play for the Isles, and they qualify to do so, then they are well within their rights and we should embrace them. Our former colonies have tended to be very loyal when we've needed them in the past, and I'm not going to say that we owe them anything here but I'd like to think that rugby, being a gentlemans game, would see beyond the petty squabbles over ancestry when we're all really in very similar boats.

Personally I'd plump for D'Arcy anyway to keep together a 'unit' with O'Driscoll, but the old bean Flutey will most likely make the trip given his form. Being a rugby chap, he'll be well aware of what The Lions represent, and if he wants to get involved with such a historic institution then I'm all for it.
 
We're too far into the professional era for this type of shenanigans, no more.
 

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