Rugby is Back - Guinness Pro 14: R. 7

[valley commando]

Alpha Bro Talks ******** (Again)
Quote Scarlets v Cardiff - Scarlets said goodbye to Europe as well this weekend with a loss to Bath... Yeah... Cardiff are on a high but won't likely upset the Scarlets who are in their safe space in a competition where teams don't play their best stuff!
Scarlets are not yet out of Europe, do the Maths matey boy, and what the **** does safe space and competition where teams don't play their best stuff. If you don't like the pro 14 don't watch it

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Alpha Bro Talks ******** (Again)
Quote Scarlets v Cardiff - Scarlets said goodbye to Europe as well this weekend with a loss to Bath... Yeah... Cardiff are on a high but won't likely upset the Scarlets who are in their safe space in a competition where teams don't play their best stuff!
Scarlets are not yet out of Europe, do the Maths matey boy, and what the **** does safe space and competition where teams don't play their best stuff. If you don't like the pro 14 don't watch it

Considering I do all the admin for the Pro 14 forum, with a tiny bit of humour I may add, despite having no obligation to do so I reckon it's fair to say I like this competition... As for Scarlet's and their best friend maths, teams don't get out of Europe dropping their first two games, one of which to a team who qualified for the competition by placing fifth in their domestic league, don't get through groups, if they do it'd be very out of the ordinary! As for my comment about safe spaces, it was pretty clear in the last two weeks that Irish, English and some French sides generally pick up their game for Europe's top tier, the Welsh and Scottish don't despite their strong showings in the Pro 14, it's a higher level and one where only clubs from three countries have succeeded!

Leinster looking like the sides of old winning comfortably and rather unimpressively with a team far from their 1st XV! COULD BE A BIG YEAR BOIIIS!! Ulster kinda tragic bar Stockers though.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Let's call a spade a spade. Ulster's pack is woeful. Leinster won that game without getting out of second gear. Pack was completely dominant.

 

[Amiga500]

Let's call a spade a spade. Ulster's pack is woeful. Leinster won that game without getting out of second gear. Pack was completely dominant.

We've known for ages that our forward pack is... so-so at best.

Funnily enough, I actually thought big Rodney Ah You had a good game (bearing in mind expectations). Put himself about very well and was solid in the scrum against both McGrath and Healy apart from once.

Black was poor in the loose (in the scrum, the front row functioned well - credit Black, Best & Aaron Dundon for that too), Best couldn't throw, Herring was no better. O'Connor didn't show much, Henderson played in flashes. Chris Henry is well down the slippery slope to retirement and Deysel was off injured. As usual (and as it was for most of last season) it was left to Sean Reidy to try and carry the pack alone. He's good, very good, all the smarts, but not the biggest or quickest and can only do so much.

The fact Robbie Diack is now one of our longest serving players ever in time and caps says it all. He may be financially successful off the pitch with his cafes etc, but on pitch, as a professional rugby footballer, the man is a loser. He'll never win you anything. The ultimate "jersey filler". He should have been sent on his way 5 years ago and a youngster with real hunger (not punching your ticket "hunger") given a chance - at least they'd have potential to get better.

 

[collace]

Brutal from Ulster on Saturday night. I don't think I've ever seen a more inept performance that what was served up in the second half - Leinster didn't have to get out of second gear.

It wouldn't be so bad if it was a one off but we've had two decent 40 minute spells the whole season (second halves vs Scarlets and Wasps). Serious questions need asked about where Ulster is going. Kiss doesn't inspire any confidence at all that he is the man to move Ulster on, there's a dearth of forward talent coming through, there is so little depth in the squad, and the one talent we seem to posses is either signing broken players or breaking them ourselves.

Another season of mediocrity awaits.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

At what point do Ulster's players stand up and take the blame? Mark McCall, Matt Williams, Brian McLaughlin, Mark Anscombe and Neil Doak have all been seen off as not got enough in the last decade. Now it's Les Kiss' fault. Soon it'll be Jono Gibbes' fault. There's something rotten up there.

They need to ruthlessly rebuild their pack. You're never going to win anything with Callum Black, Rodney Ah You, Alan O'Connor, Robbie Diack and Chris Henry (who was outstanding only 3 or 4 years ago) as key forwards. They need a hooker who can throw the ball. Another Johann Muller in the second row who can boss that pack. Raid Leinster and Munster for props and backrowers. Then they have a chance.

 

[Amiga500]

At what point do Ulster's players stand up and take the blame? Mark McCall, Matt Williams, Brian McLaughlin, Mark Anscombe and Neil Doak have all been seen off as not got enough in the last decade. Now it's Les Kiss' fault. Soon it'll be Jono Gibbes' fault. There's something rotten up there.

The whole thing is rotten. Calling for Kiss' head is like the English soccer team calling for the head of whatever manager didn't win them the world cup.


There are serious issues both within the professional set up and the branch. The academy probably needs shut down. Its not working. Its sending out all the wrong signals to kids who think they've made it, are learning fk all from bad coaches and are not bringing their game on with either hunger or skill.

The coaching throughout the province isn't at the races. All the professional coaches do is hang around the Belfast schools. No use. The club game is under-served, underdeveloped and ignored. Young club players outperforming the academy "stars" week in week out are ignored. Why?

Too many jobs for ex-players who haven't earned their stripes elsewhere - and just recycling the same old knowledgebase again and again.

Big changes are needed - unfortunately they will hurt a lot of people so they are continually re-arranging the deckchairs on the ***anic.


Compare Ulster to any of the other 3 provinces. All have young blood they can bring on and they'll do a job. We seem to continually have to buy in any average pro that'll come because our own youngsters aren't up to it, for example:

- Black
- Ah You
- Ross (Bronson)
- O'Connor
- Browne
- Deysel
- Ross (Clive)
- Shanahan
- Heron
- Windsor

All of the above are decent - but none of the other provinces would take them (when we did in the case of Ah You) as they'd be no better (and significantly older) than their youth options.


Herring I'll give a by as he was promising much a couple of seasons ago but has went to crap since. Reidy is having to carry our back row and has been doing so as best he can for about a year and a half.



Forget about rebuilding the pack - thats gonna be another band aid fix. They need to completely rebuild the culture and the structure of the whole thing. Virtually none of the current incumbents should carry over to the new structure.


Even the vaunted backline isn't up to all that much. None of the homegrowns are threatening the top 10 in Europe in their position. You ain't gonna win much outside that kinda standard.

 

[Groundhog]

Plenty of front row (Brian Scott, Liam O'Connor, Andrew Porter, Peter Dooley) and back row (the other O'Connor brother, Timmins, Deegan, Oliver) talent in Munster and Leinster (they'll have to look elsewhere for second rows unless the likes of Nagle and Copeland interest them) who will struggle to become established at the moment and could do a job in Ulster, but I'm still not sure if a lot of guys would want to go north in favour of battling it out at home and seeing a good amount of game time while the internationals away, rather than walking into a team where it will be difficult enough to shine in the pack, and as others have said a pretty negative culture it seems.

 

[collace]

The whole thing is rotten. Calling for Kiss' head is like the English soccer team calling for the head of whatever manager didn't win them the world cup.


There are serious issues both within the professional set up and the branch. The academy probably needs shut down. Its not working. Its sending out all the wrong signals to kids who think they've made it, are learning fk all from bad coaches and are not bringing their game on with either hunger or skill.

The coaching throughout the province isn't at the races. All the professional coaches do is hang around the Belfast schools. No use. The club game is under-served, underdeveloped and ignored. Young club players outperforming the academy "stars" week in week out are ignored. Why?

Too many jobs for ex-players who haven't earned their stripes elsewhere - and just recycling the same old knowledgebase again and again.

Big changes are needed - unfortunately they will hurt a lot of people so they are continually re-arranging the deckchairs on the ***anic.


Compare Ulster to any of the other 3 provinces. All have young blood they can bring on and they'll do a job. We seem to continually have to buy in any average pro that'll come because our own youngsters aren't up to it, for example:

- Black
- Ah You
- Ross (Bronson)
- O'Connor
- Browne
- Deysel
- Ross (Clive)
- Shanahan
- Heron
- Windsor

All of the above are decent - but none of the other provinces would take them (when we did in the case of Ah You) as they'd be no better (and significantly older) than their youth options.


Herring I'll give a by as he was promising much a couple of seasons ago but has went to crap since. Reidy is having to carry our back row and has been doing so as best he can for about a year and a half.



Forget about rebuilding the pack - thats gonna be another band aid fix. They need to completely rebuild the culture and the structure of the whole thing. Virtually none of the current incumbents should carry over to the new structure.


Even the vaunted backline isn't up to all that much. None of the homegrowns are threatening the top 10 in Europe in their position. You ain't gonna win much outside that kinda standard.

Not much to argue with there. There just seems to be a general malaise about the place which permeates right through the set-up. I don't claim to be close to the set-up but you hear about names coming through the Academy and big things expected etc. then never hear from them again. Are they really any worse than some of the mediocrity which manages to find it's way into the Ulster squad these days? Why not find out? At least this season we have seen a couple of appearances from young homegrown forwards.

You mention the backline. I find it interesting that out of 38 players in the latest Irish squad, 6 are from Ulster. Of those 6, only 2 are backs. Too often we rely on Piautau providing a spark. The one bright spark this season has been the continued emergence of Stockdale.

 

[munstermuffin]

On 2nd rows for Ulster. Treadwell and Henderson are surely there already and good enough

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

On 2nd rows for Ulster. Treadwell and Henderson are surely there already and good enough

No issue with them as starters. When you go beyond them there's no depth. Top teams need 4 high quality locks in my opinion. Law of averages means one of those will always be injured/unavailable, then rotate the others liberally. Treadwell, Henderson and O'Connor (as clear 4th choice) make up three of those spots. Add somebody on a similar level to the Ireland internationals and Ulster would be in decent shape there.

 

[munstermuffin]

No issue with them as starters. When you go beyond them there's no depth. Top teams need 4 high quality locks in my opinion. Law of averages means one of those will always be injured/unavailable, then rotate the others liberally. Treadwell, Henderson and O'Connor (as clear 4th choice) make up three of those spots. Add somebody on a similar level to the Ireland internationals and Ulster would be in decent shape there.

But we same here in Munster. My point is even the starting pack are not great. Like Leinster excluded most provinces depth is average at best

 

[Amiga500]

But we same here in Munster. My point is even the starting pack are not great. Like Leinster excluded most provinces depth is average at best

But you guys are playing your own youngsters and they are growing into the role. Once they are established, you'll have another bunch coming through underneath.

Sometimes, Munster have a miss (i.e. Archer), sometimes a near-miss (i.e. O'Donnell), and sometimes hit the home run (O'Donoghue).

We seem to bring through maybe one of our own youth players every two/three seasons and fill the rest out with average enough imports. IMO if an NIQ isn't going to significantly advance first team strength, I'd rather not see them. For instance - Hond Van Der Merwe - unless he's a step above McCall or Warwick (which I doubt) - I don't see the point.

 

[unrated]

Top teams need 4 high quality locks in my opinion. Law of averages means one of those will always be injured/unavailable, then rotate the others liberally. .

That would obviously be very ideal for a team aiming to win a trophy or two but honestly even the top teams i've seen only has two high quality locks. If the Lock is good and not starting, then chances are he will move to a team where he will start.
If you mean international quality by saying "high quality" then i don't think many teams possess that luxury if any.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

If you mean international quality by saying "high quality" then i don't think many teams possess that luxury if any.

I can only speak of the team I support as a reference point. Leinster have been near the top of the European scene for about a decade. When they started to reach that point, they had Ireland internationals in Malcolm O'Kelly, Leo Cullen, Trevor Hogan and Devin Toner (future international at that point). When they peaked they had Leo Cullen, Devin Toner, Brad Thorn and Damian Browne who had bags of experience in France. Ireland international Mike McCarthy plugged the gap when Thorn left. Now that have Devin Toner, Scott Fardy, James Ryan and a former Ireland u20 captain in Ross Molony. All get plenty of game time throughout the season.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I can only speak of the team I support as a reference point. Leinster have been near the top of the European scene for about a decade. When they started to reach that point, they had Ireland internationals in Malcolm O'Kelly, Leo Cullen, Trevor Hogan and Devin Toner (future international at that point). When they peaked they had Leo Cullen, Devin Toner, Brad Thorn and Damian Browne who had bags of experience in France. Ireland international Mike McCarthy plugged the gap when Thorn left. Now that have Devin Toner, Scott Fardy, James Ryan and a former Ireland u20 captain in Ross Molony. All get plenty of game time throughout the season.

Wish Cullen had stayed with Tigers He bloody well used us and left us.