[RWC2019][Pool B] Round 3 - England vs. Argentina (05/10/2019)

[Goodey]

Wanting to rest Ford for the QF is a bad thing?

It's not and I would be completely on board with the decision he's had enough rugby over the last two weeks. He should 100% start at 10 in the QF, though.

Manu-JJ in not close to our best centre partnership even though both are having a good tournament. They both have an identical role in the attacking structure, it's just that Manu hammers through the defenders that JJ would jump over. Neither is an inside back.

If Ford is rested than we need to play Slade or Francis as they are the primary 10-12 cover. If they can't do that job then they shouldn't be in the squad.

 

[TommiG88]

Actually my theory is why Ford came off is worry about a Farrell delayed concussion and not being availiable for France.

Worrying that England kept someone on thinking he would have delayed concussion.

Just feel that trying something else and keeping the opposition guessing is a good thing.

Ford Manu Joseph would be fine with me.

 

[ncurd]

Worrying that England kept someone on thinking he would have delayed concussion.

I'm baffled he was left on at all TBH.

 

[Reiser99]

Despite the score I think we missed a real opportunity to lay down a marker though. We had a good kip for most of the 2nd half against 14 men. We could / should have put 50+ on them, which would have sent a real message that we'll be totally ruthless when given a sniff.

I don't mind that we took our foot off the gas and didn't push ourselves. We still have the toughest games to come and we want the squad intact. Yes the Argentinian try was disappointing, but overall we've won 3 games comfortably, without having to push ourselves.

 

[Which Tyler]

Well unfortunately I didn't get to see a lot of that but I did catch England's two tries in the last 10. Looked like convincingly the better side so I'm chuffed.

As expected there's a lot of unjustified complaining. Two points:

- A tier one nations getting thumped by 29 points wont happen again this tournament. With the possible exception of Scotland by NZ.

- A lot of comments that the red card after 20 ended the game. Then why didn't Daly getting sent off after 5 minutes against Argentina a couple of years ago end that game?

Because Jonny May played like a god that day

 

[Which Tyler]

As well as Faz's kicking being off he was uncharacteristically indecisive on a few occasions.

I'm going to need a lot of convincing that he wasn't carrying a head knock for 3/4 of the match.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

https://www.planetrugby.com/five-takeaways-from-england-v-argentina/

Someone order a takeaway? Here's 5.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Something I find odd is how we have a great weapon in Billy V but we always make a point of just sending him as an isolated runner into the tightest concentration of defenders. Just because he is a very good battering ram, that doesn't mean he should only be sent into tight spaces. With a bit more room to work with, he could open up much more space. We also don't seem to use him as a dummy runner anywhere near enough, his runs are nearly always telegraphed and I feel we aren't using him optimally at all. If we are going to chuck him at set up defenders then the pop pass out the back should be an option but that isn't being used either.

 

[Scotty]

So what is going on with us dropping off when the game is won?

All i can think is to save the legs and reduce injury risk. The other i thought was keep kicking the ball to them and defending with tired legs, practising being stuck with little possession. Both make sense as long as its planned.

How many points have we conceded now? 20? Or Something?

 

[Grizwald]

Job done. For someone who is better off playing for fitness Billy V looks very lethargic to me, Ludlum in comparison when he came on was a bundle of energy. He could well have played himself onto the bench in place of Wilson who imo hasn't been givien much of a chance for being one of England's outstanding players over the last 12 months. Carrying in that back row is very light without an in form Billy.....

Lineout was a bit wobbly today.

Not read far back but was a defintie red for me.

France's laissez faire attitude to this WC worries me a bit for next weekend.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You always know England have done OK when idiots like Shanklin are kicking off on social media

 

[Rinkadink]

You always know England have done OK when idiots like Shanklin are kicking off on social media

Oh? Was just starting to shift through the Twitter hatred/bigotry. So I'll be sure to have a nose.

What I'm currently looking at;

 

[Rinkadink]

You always know England have done OK when idiots like Shanklin are kicking off on social media

Wow, he's reposting that still image that's been doing the rounds and saying people pointing out its different are being myopic. I wish pundits would be more responsible because they are in a position of power and do have influence not just over fans but governing bodies and the like. Disappointing.

Link here for those interested;
https://mobile.twitter.com/TomShanklin/status/1180428338520842240

 

[TommiG88]

Wow, he's reposting that still image that's been doing the rounds and saying people pointing out its different are being myopic. I wish pundits would be more responsible because they are in a position of power and do have influence not just over fans but governing bodies and the like. Disappointing.

Link here for those interested;
https://mobile.twitter.com/TomShanklin/status/1180428338520842240

Shanklin isn't a pundit, just a salty Welshman. Always has been.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Wasn't Francis cited making his point entirely the opposite of what he wants it to be?

 

[ncurd]

Wasn't Francis cited making his point entirely the opposite of what he wants it to be?

Citing was dismissed.

Doesn't matter a person with eyes can easially see the Argentina player has a completely different point of contact to Francis even from just those stills.

 

[Rinkadink]

Shanklin isn't a pundit, just a salty Welshman. Always has been.

Well he technically is a pundit when he makes TV/media appearances still? Don't think there's an official qualification to be one. I would debate "learned" from the definition in his case though but he's hardly alone there.

Wasn't Francis cited making his point entirely the opposite of what he wants it to be?

Yes, to an extent. Also dismissed and Hooley has even stated he didn't think he was hit in the head by Francis. Poor show from people reposting/arguing "Consistency" between these two incidents. Images without context can be misleading.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Citing was dismissed.

Doesn't matter a person with eyes can easially see the Argentina player has a completely different point of contact to Francis even from just those stills.

Oh yeah, I agree. Just thought there was an extra dimension of stupidity there.

 

[Zed]

So what is going on with us dropping off when the game is won?

All i can think is to save the legs and reduce injury risk. The other i thought was keep kicking the ball to them and defending with tired legs, practising being stuck with little possession. Both make sense as long as its planned.

How many points have we conceded now? 20? Or Something?

Considering the talent England had on the field, I think that was a pretty ordinary performance. More a criticism of the game plan rather than individual players. I'm not quite understanding the willingness England had to continually kick away decent possession. Ford was kicking for touch whilst in the Argies half. Argies win the lineout, hoof the ball 50m and England are back where they started, with possession, but 50m from the try lineline. Box kicks from Youngs, caught cleanly by the Argies, they're tackled, England have gained 20m, but lost possession.... They have some phenomenal runners, 1 through 8 can hit the ball up and make yardage, then you have the likes of Tuilagi and Watson. Why not recycle the ball, hit Vunipola, Itoje etc running hard of the ruck and repeat...

The reports I have read have heaped praise on Ford and to a lesser extent Farrell. I felt these were England's weakest players and responsible for the lack of cohesion, momentum and rhythm. The Ford/Farrell (IMO) doesn't work. I seem to remember England doing this quite often, sticking two fly halves in the side instead of a flyhalf and a centre. Neither Ford or Farrell are centres, very simply, they lack the pace and this also limits their play from 10. Ford is adequate at 10. He does what is asked of him. Just. England need a Cipriani, Carter style 10, someone with pace and agility.

England have the team to win the world cup, but they don't have the game plan. I'm not sure what they expect the All Blacks back 3 to do when they box kick to them, drop the ball? Stand there with their thumbs in their asses?! Their gameplan was a carbon copy of the Tongan game, so I'm guessing they will persist with this through the whole comp. If they do, I can't see them making it past the quarters. If they get their **** together, they should make the final.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Something I find odd is how we have a great weapon in Billy V but we always make a point of just sending him as an isolated runner into the tightest concentration of defenders. Just because he is a very good battering ram, that doesn't mean he should only be sent into tight spaces. With a bit more room to work with, he could open up much more space. We also don't seem to use him as a dummy runner anywhere near enough, his runs are nearly always telegraphed and I feel we aren't using him optimally at all. If we are going to chuck him at set up defenders then the pop pass out the back should be an option but that isn't being used either.

I think he's simply out of form and / or been worked out. His USP is that he can make ground with 4 defenders hanging off him, but if he's not doing that then his value to the team is limited.

I think the 2 openside selection is to specifically compensate for some of what Binny doesn't bring. It's all set up for him, but he's got to deliver his part of the deal.

Assuming he's fit he should either be benched against France or dropped. Give Wilson a chance and Binny a message. Maybe there are some parallels with 91 where Teague took over from an out of sorts Richards.

We didn't learn much about where Mako's at today either.

Jones has to pick on form, not reputation.