[RWC2019][Pool B] Round 3 - England vs. Argentina (05/10/2019)

Discussion in 'Rugby World Cup 2019' started by TRF_heineken, Sep 30, 2019.

  1. TobyBeastTeague

    TobyBeastTeague First XV

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    I disagree. If a player can suck in 4 defenders then I don't care whether he's making metres or not; that's 4 defenders out of the game for the offensive team to exploit.
     
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  3. Old Hooker

    Old Hooker First XV

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    OK, but that’s a pretty narrow interpretation of what I was saying.

    The point is that he’s supposed to be one of our marquee players who can regularly influence the course of matches. I haven’t seen that in the warm ups or the tournament so far. When was the last time he was even in the MoTM conversation?

    He may be doing exactly what Jones wants. If so, fine, but I suspect Jones will want to see much more as the tournament goes on and the opposition improves.
     
  4. TobyBeastTeague

    TobyBeastTeague First XV

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    That's fair, but I'd argue that his supposed lack of impact is much more to do with his reputation than a lack of form. He's widely regarded as the best ball carrier on the planet; defences focus on him and so of course he doesn't make as much of an impact as he did when EJ first rejuvenated him back in 2016/17. I'd also say he still manages to consistently beat the first defender, and since the training camp he seems to be significantly faster.
     
  5. Jimbo

    Jimbo Academy Player

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    agreed I mean you have said it all he draws more than just his opposite number so should create an overlap somewhere if properly exposed and almost always makes meters, I mean what do people want the blokes a super ball carrier not super man....
     
  6. Yoshimitsu

    Yoshimitsu Academy Player

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    I have a theory. Not sure it's a good one but bear with me. I think with Billy V we're looking at the law of unintended consequences. The high tackle framework has lowered the target area for most tacklers (idiots excepted). Billy's massive strength was leg drive / offload where people went high. Well what's happening now (appears to be coached) is that one player goes super low (feet and ankles) whilst the higher tackler now targets restricting the offload. I can't remember the last time Billy committed 4 tacklers to be fair. This means that Billy isn't fighting his way forward he's being felled at the gainline. He has got faster and uses his feet well but the days of people trying to dominate the hit and losing are done. He's still pretty good to be fair but I'd point to Wilson's performance against the U.S. he brings more aggressive defence than Billy and carries adequately and just appears to be one of those "glue" guys that sticks stuff together. It's not a given for me that Billy is the better player. His USP isn't getting it done at the moment. Can he raise his game? I hope so, he's cracking when he's smashing people about..........
     
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  7. scotty507

    scotty507 First XV

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    Surprised they dont have billy running at the transition zone so slightly wider so less traffic more of a shoulder, meaning they can choose to use him as a decoy same as they do Manu. Havimg 2 big carriers in the team that both need 2 defenders and both can also just as easily be decoys is a real weapon.

    Can you imagine ford manu slade with billy running off ford, crash ball and recycle or loop billy(as his hands are decent) and then has manu slade short and long outside him. That would would likely create space for may daly watson nowell Ect.
     
  8. Radsy

    Radsy Academy Player

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    I’m blown away that Argentina didn’t bring Isa and Bonilla to this tournament. Sheer idiocy.

    Also, red cards are still the stupidest thing in the sport.
     
  9. TheOvalBall

    TheOvalBall First XV

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    Just an observation, but Eddie Jones has a habit of starting really well, and then falls off the wagon the longer he coaches a team.
     
  10. scotty507

    scotty507 First XV

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    Thing is with red cards we have to get used to it. They are full on safety mode and give it a full season of this new frame work and reds will down, prob atm is players that have played and tackled in certein positions for years now have to change there tackle technique that is pretty much muscle memory because what was borderline but a good big hit is now a straight red. They woll get used to it but it should have been made this strict 2 years ago ready for the WC not stepped up during where it could change the outcome.
     
  11. ncurd

    ncurd International

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    TBH what happened today has been a red for some time now. The fact he was Argentina's most carded player suggest he knew exactly what he was doing and has plenty of previous.

    I have little sympathy for this kind of his the framework has nothing to do with it.
     
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  12. Radsy

    Radsy Academy Player

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    I agree it’s a red all day and has been. Lavanini is trash.

    However, I will never agree with red cards resulting in the team playing shorthanded for the remainder of the game. Refs should not decide the contest.
     
  13. ncurd

    ncurd International

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    The ref didn't though Lavanini did. The ref is the the enforcer of the laws they don't force the players to break them.



    Honestly I'm a little baffled we go into a world cup being told ref will not be lenient on head hits. Yet I think I've seen more in the the entire group stages than I've seen in all previous world cup combined. Did everyone take stupid pills or something?
     
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  14. scotty507

    scotty507 First XV

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    Agreed 100% my post was more a general point of things like this would have been less if they didnt wait until the tournement to say they were going to be hot on it, had they been strict for 2 years would all 5 of these have happened or would players know the limits and more of a point be prepared to tackle within the law.
     
  15. Jimbo

    Jimbo Academy Player

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    I do get where you are coming from but I’ve said it as have others that red today had nothing to do with changes and has been a red for many a year recent framework is absolutely 100% not relevant here...
     
  16. Rich Taff

    Rich Taff First XV

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    Haven't gone through the entire thread, but discussed this game with a few English friends.
    I though this was England's poorest performance by a long way. Youngs didn't help. He looked like Aled Davies, slowing everything down.
    They seemed totally incapable of actually changing the game plan to account for the opposition going down to 14 men. They continued to play short pass run it up the middle rugby, with no apparent creativity.
    So far, they've done all that was needed of them to win each game, not looking in any danger of losing, but not looking like they have much more up their sleeve.
    I'm starting to think they may have been overcoached.
    This lack of creativity will (in my opinion) severely hamper any chance they have of getting past a tier 1 nation in the knockout stages.

    Also, what has happened to Argentina? I thought they were were supposed to be doing well in the super 12 (as the Jaguars(sp?)). They were absolutely awful, look like they've gone backwards 4 years instead of forwards from last world cup.

    (Just re-read this and noticed how many times I used the word 'they'. That's not good grammar :p)
     
  17. Jimbo

    Jimbo Academy Player

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    could of increased the score line in all the games TBH, all said and done you can only play what’s in front of you and if I were a player and we’d secured the BP win I wouldn’t want to go above and beyond and risk injury solely to look better on the scoreboard.

    England will defiantly have to find another gear or two, cruse control period is over remains to be seen if they can raise it when required.
     
  18. scotty507

    scotty507 First XV

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    Fair point well made :) maybe i should be in the Ref decisions thread. I think my point is would this have happened had they brought this in earlier as they would have had years to prepare and change technique. So is kind of relavent. But im done talking about this anyways.

    The game. 3rd game 27 points conceded? In total and qualified so all good.
     
  19. Rinkadink

    Rinkadink Bench Player

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    This argument is one I've only seen lately, a red card is supposed to be a deterrent. If players do not commit red card offenses it's not going to be an issue, and when there is an issue it's the fault of the player for going so far beyond the laws of the game.

    Its a team sport; you win together, lose together and face the consequences together.
     
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  20. BiggusLaddus

    BiggusLaddus Academy Player

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    First side to qualify for the knock outs
    Only side in the competition with maximum points
    Joint highest points for in the competition
    Best points difference in the competition
    Just scored six trys against a tier 1 opponent

    I think our creativity is fine and momentum 'appears' to be building nicely.
     
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  21. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    Well I’ll tell you what’s the matter with Argentina, and it’s something we SH posters discussed at length during the RC, and it’s the Jaguares didn’t rest their players enough. So their season is at the moment extremely long, plus during the shortened RC they did minimal changes between games so their core group, who are all in Japan, played every game.

    But Lavanini is a total moron, that’s his 8th red card or something like that.
     
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