[RWC2019][Pool C] Round 1 - England vs. Tonga (22/09/2019)

[Larksea]

interesting result, I think it puts the AB's 85 point thrashing of Tonga into context. People wrote Tonga off as a speed bump because of that result but I said most top teams wouldn't be able to beat this Tongan side so easily.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

interesting result, I think it puts the AB's 85 point thrashing of Tonga into context. People wrote Tonga off as a speed bump because of that result but I said most top teams wouldn't be able to beat this Tongan side so easily.

Too much was read into NZ - Tonga result which was a glorified training run, just like England putting 57 points past Ireland in August.

 

[Rinkadink]

interesting result, I think it puts the AB's 85 point thrashing of Tonga into context. People wrote Tonga off as a speed bump because of that result but I said most top teams wouldn't be able to beat this Tongan side so easily.

In a meaningless game, I think a better gauge would be Tonga's performance in the Pacific Nations Cup which wasn't great to be fair. They seem to have improved since then.

If you really want to use the NZ game it shows that the ABs defence might need some work as Tonga were unable to cross the English try line, hows that for context?

 

[TheOvalBall]

Farrell as captain. I don't know. Seems like a dodgy call to me.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

interesting result, I think it puts the AB's 85 point thrashing of Tonga into context. People wrote Tonga off as a speed bump because of that result but I said most top teams wouldn't be able to beat this Tongan side so easily.

A better comparison is the sort of score NZ have put on Tonga in previous world cups. The points difference from this game is pretty much the same as 3 times NZ have met Tonga (PD in the 30's). The game was scrappy but NZ thrashing Tonga was not indicative of the sort of results people should expect just as England thrashing Ireland isn't indicative of how they will perform. It's like England drew with Scotland, England thrashed Ireland twice therefore Scotland should beat Ireland.

 

[Larksea]

A better comparison is the sort of score NZ have put on Tonga in previous world cups. The points difference from this game is pretty much the same as 3 times NZ have met Tonga (PD in the 30's). The game was scrappy but NZ thrashing Tonga was not indicative of the sort of results people should expect just as England thrashing Ireland isn't indicative of how they will perform. It's like England drew with Scotland, England thrashed Ireland twice therefore Scotland should beat Ireland.

so your effectively saying a game played years ago between vastly different groups of players and coaches is a better comparison than a game played a couple of weeks ago.
ok

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

so your effectively saying a game played years ago between vastly different groups of players and coaches is a better comparison than a game played a couple of weeks ago.
ok

No, I'm saying that at multiple times the team that won the world cup put in less than stellar performances against Tonga and that failing to annihilate a minnow nation has little to no bearing on a teams ability to win a world cup. In 2003 England struggled against Samoa too. In 2007 England were annihilated by south africa in the group stages yet nearly beat them in the final.

Do you think everyone should expect to thrash Ireland because England did a few weeks ago? No? Then you're not even following your own claim.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

If they go deep into the tournament, no one will remember this. For their own peace of mind though they'll have wanted to have been more precise and disciplined. And I just don't buy the line that we're hiding some lethal moves for later in the tournament.

At the end of the day, Tonga are ranked 15th and not all their players are full time pros or in senior club leagues. Night and day in terms of resources too, so yes in this era we should have expected to win easily.

Anyway BP banked, hopefully no major injuries and we move on to the US. Selection for that will be interesting.

 

[TheOvalBall]

I thought England looked really good. Even if Tonga are not the best, you still need to put those type of teams away.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

interesting result, I think it puts the AB's 85 point thrashing of Tonga into context. People wrote Tonga off as a speed bump because of that result but I said most top teams wouldn't be able to beat this Tongan side so easily.

Well, I think Tonga improved, England focused on an up front hit out, and I think England have a team that can put that many points on anybody but not necessarily put on a whole lot more, whereas the all blacks will simply score more the worse their opposition.

England showed enough to concern me, that's for sure. Definite contenders.

 

[Zed]

I thought England looked really good. Even if Tonga are not the best, you still need to put those type of teams away.

You must have been watching a different game...

England were poor, but that said, it looked like they had a conservative game plan which they were following, for whatever reason. They seemed reluctant to counter-attack, opting for the box kick a lot. So perhaps they were going through the motions, dress rehearsal for how they plan to play against stronger sides rather than throwing it around willy nilly. Well you'd hope that was the case as it would seem odd, continuing to play such conservative rugby against weak opposition when the game was already won. Also I thought Tonga were pretty poor. Other than a few patches they seemed to be on a damage limitation mission, playing like they were protecting a 2 point lead when they were down by 25 points. Compare them to Fiji. Completely different attitude. If they had brought the game to England, it would have made for a greater game, but they would most likely have gone down by 50+ points. The ball handling by England was pretty crap too, which didn't help. The 10, 12, 13 combination didn't work well. I think England needs a quicker, more explosive 12. I would have thought Tuilagi at 12 and Joseph at 13 would be a much better option, swapping around for certain set-piece moves if needed.

 

[MarkyH]

I think that's what I'm trying to get out, I'm not saying we're hiding all our attacking moves, but we're playing a conservative game plan, but I've seen us attack well in games in the last year, scoring from first phase etc etc. Our problem has been preventing trys against and we've done that in our last 2 games, admittedly against weaker opposition, but we haven't even looked like conceding.

Even if we halved yesterdays handling errors, we could of scored more, and that is with the same game plan.

I really don't get this 'Team A needs to make a statement against Team B' rubbish, especially in game 1 of a WC. And comparing it to a friendly Vs New Zealand is silly, as is comparing Englands result against Ireland. Tonga made so many handling errors vs NZ that it was almost too easy for them.

I can't recall a single handling error from Tonga yesterday, they were sharp and superbly disciplined.

I guess it fills the gaps between matchdays to have a moan, but I'm happy with the result, even if it was a rather boring, slow game.

 

[donmcdazzle]

There's probably no point in England playing a game that won't resemble a game they'll play against Argentina and France, let alone the knockouts. Sure, they could have ran from everywhere, chucked it about and (probably) racked up a huge score, but they wouldn't have gotten anything out of it compared to playing a game that will somewhat resemble what they'll have to do later on. It is a little bit like what NZ did in 2015, and probably what we will do in the rest of this round robin now as well.

 

[spartan32]

Take aways for me:

We didn't leak any tries. Solid defence and the Tongans never looked like crossing the white wash. Good line speed and decent tackles.

Slade at fullback is something I've never even considered but could make sense. Certainly good to know he could cover there.

Our hands were just rubbish. We kept on over running and over playing and certainly left at least 2 try's out there.

Genge seemed to struggle in the scrum, which is a bit worrying.

JJ is awesome as is Manu. Great to see them both back.

We go the bonus point and that's what matters. Sure it wasn't pretty at Times, but hopefully it's helped to shake off the cobwebs and focused the lads minds. It's got to be clinical from here in out or it's the quarters and no further, at best.

 

[Scotty]

Take aways for me:

We didn't leak any tries. Solid defence and the Tongans never looked like crossing the white wash. Good line speed and decent tackles.

Slade at fullback is something I've never even considered but could make sense. Certainly good to know he could cover there.

Our hands were just rubbish. We kept on over running and over playing and certainly left at least 2 try's out there.

Genge seemed to struggle in the scrum, which is a bit worrying.

JJ is awesome as is Manu. Great to see them both back.

We go the bonus point and that's what matters. Sure it wasn't pretty at Times, but hopefully it's helped to shake off the cobwebs and focused the lads minds. It's got to be clinical from here in out or it's the quarters and no further, at best.

JJ is awesome but can be blinkered in tighter games where the space isnt there thats why i prefer Manu Slade.

Slade at FB i am a chiefs fan and i dont remember him playing there but always talk of he can cover. My view was the was for him to be able to run catch and step without being in the firing line at 13 but didnt pan out as he got clattered. Class player though.

Watson was an odd one for me,can be great but in stepping he tends to run into traffic sometimes.

 

[Goodey]

The notion that England only scored four tries because of conservatism is a bit out. The reason it doesn't feel like enough is because if we'd handled properly we'd have scored six or seven. So it's annoying, but it's not really problem if you expect them to improve their finishing, which I do.

Defensively England were very encouraging. Tonga never came close to scoring a try, and that's the first time they've failed to score all year, and the first time they've not scored a try at a world cup against anyone not named New Zealand.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah we left 15-21 points out there (three tries).
Underhill held up, Illegal turnover on the tryline, Slade --> Daly,

That's not including the numerous knockons etc. (Underhill knocking on after Ford's excellent kick/chase, for example).

Accuracy was our issue rather than conservatism.

 

[Which Tyler]

Yeah we left 15-21 points out there (three tries).
Underhill held up, Illegal turnover on the tryline, Slade --> Daly,

That's not including the numerous knockons etc. (Underhill knocking on after Ford's excellent kick/chase, for example).

Accuracy was our issue rather than conservatism.

Which is why I'm disappointed, not worried or angry.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The notion that England only scored four tries because of conservatism is a bit out. The reason it doesn't feel like enough is because if we'd handled properly we'd have scored six or seven. So it's annoying, but it's not really problem if you expect them to improve their finishing, which I do.

Defensively England were very encouraging. Tonga never came close to scoring a try, and that's the first time they've failed to score all year, and the first time they've not scored a try at a world cup against anyone not named New Zealand.

The lack of accuracy was the disappointing aspect, and it wasn't just in the finishing. That all should improve, but so will the opposition and the pressure under which we have to execute those skills.

10 pens against isn't so clever either. We just don't seem to learn. According to ESPN it was the same old suspects - Sincks 3, Itoje 2 & Genge 2.

17 turnovers conceded isn't so great. Nor really is 19 missed tackles against a tough, but pretty limited team.

I've said a zillion times that stats don't tell the whole story, but they can help paint the picture.

No harm done, but Jones said we weren't good enough and for once he should be taken at face value.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

The sad thing is this team hasn't been put under real pressure yet by a decent team. Granted it was the first game and first hit and the team will improve, but accuracy and discipline under pressure is what it's all about at the World Cup. Up to 5 big games on the trot and both will have have to improve immeasurably from the first game if we're going to go deep.

USA game won't tell us any more and the expectation is that even the second team can put 50 past them or should do.

So the next time the first 23 will play together again will be v Argentina and this will tell us a lot of where this team is.