[RWC2019][Pool C] Round 1 - England vs. Tonga (22/09/2019)

[Rinkadink]

Francis has been mostly decent for England. I thought he was good in both of the games against Wales (arguably one of our best players in the Cardiff game). He was poor against Italy, but I think Farrell needs to shoulder at least some of the blame for failing to get our midfield in to the game. It was noticeable how much better Francis had looked alongside Ford against better opposition than the Italian B team.

Was going to make a post but you've done it for me pretty much, spot on assessment IMO. I was sceptical but he's done very well when not outside Faz.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Isn't this the worst game for England to start off with? Those PI teams are brutal in World Cups. And the possibility of more England players getting injured could be a big problem for them, even if it's their fringe players.

They don't want to have the situation where a fringe player has to be replaced by another lesser fringe player...

 

[Every Time Ref]

Yeah - that's fair. I wasn't hugely unhappy with his inclusion, but I'd have preferred Spencer or Robson as a third scrum half.

Yes me too

Agree. Quite possibly picked as he wouldn't be a problem player. I'm not saying Brown, or a Care or Cips are problem players but I'm sure they would not be happy not playing. Best to keep them away, hope we dont have loads of injuries and keep the atmosphere good.

That's why hes been picked, and players like Ludlan and Francis. No dramas. Its not like we have glaring omissions that deserve a place.

Would've took Spencer tho

Ha, I personally would stick my neck out and say Cips is a "problem player"!

I read somewhere that Jones said when picking a WV squad the first players he picks are his first 23; then secondly he picks the players who will never get a proper game, the 5th choice wingers etc - and he said explicitly he picks mainly on personality, exactly what you said above. The players who are backups and could well end up playing a key role on the pitch, depending on circumstance - those are the final piece of the puzzle for him.

Of course a lot of of what EJ says is rubbish so who knows

Totally agreed. The kit may be similar but the skills are becoming more and more specialist. The Jason Roys far outnumber the Ben Stokes.

I think we learnt from Burgess that the mental "winning mentality" or whatever doesn't automatically switch over to another sport if you don't have the skillset.

 

[Jimbo]

Yes me too

Ha, I personally would stick my neck out and say Cips is a "problem player"!

Personally I would stick my neck out and say based on current form Cips is the best FH in the premiership and is widely respected by his peers and your statement is outdated and based on nothing but your own bias.

 

[Which Tyler]

Out of interest @Jimbo What is it about shoulder charges that you think the law should protect the cheat instead of the victim?

 

[petite]

come on tonga! Argentina is with you!

 

[Every Time Ref]

Personally I would stick my neck out and say based on current form Cips is the best FH in the premiership and is widely respected by his peers and your statement is outdated and based on nothing but your own bias.

It's based on the sheer number of teams he seems to have fallen out with, and that, what is it 3? 4? separate England head coaches (with very different personalities and management styles) have kept him at best on the fringes of the squad despite his obvious talent. That's a big red flag to me

 

[Every Time Ref]

come on tonga! Argentina is with you!

Awwwwww, and I got a like from you for supporting Argentina in the other thread. I'm taking this personally

 

[petite]

Awwwwww, and I got a like from you for supporting Argentina in the other thread. I'm taking this personally[/QUOTE
haha Don t take it seriously is normal to support the weakest team! I just love the ilanders. and England will win anyway

 

[Jimbo]

It's based on the sheer number of teams he seems to have fallen out with, and that, what is it 3? 4? separate England head coaches (with very different personalities and management styles) have kept him at best on the fringes of the squad despite his obvious talent. That's a big red flag to me

Personally in my mind outdated, players respect him, they voted him player of the year after all, I think Faz has so much influence it would be pretty impossible for anyone to get a look on right now. I'm not saying he hasn't been a problem in the past I think the tag is now outdated and unfortunately stuck to him.

Out of interest @Jimbo What is it about shoulder charges that you think the law should protect the cheat instead of the victim?

When did I ever say a player should be allowed to shoulder charge???

 

[Every Time Ref]

haha Don t take it seriously is normal to support the weakest team! I just love the ilanders. and England will win anyway

No estaba serio! Claro que todo el mundo prefiere que gane el "sobreperro" (I don't know to say underdog ...)

 

[petite]

No estaba serio! Claro que todo el mundo prefiere que gane el "sobreperro" (I don't know to say underdog ...)

haha hilarious translation!
it should be "no lo tomes seriamente, claro que todo el mundo prefiere que gane el más debil" (débil is weakest) (there is no word for underdog) you can translate it literally as bajoperro but means nothing) "sobreperro" would be "overdog" anyway thanks for trying.

 

[Every Time Ref]

haha hilarious translation!
it should be "no lo tomes seriamente, claro que todo el mundo prefiere que gane el más debil" (débil is weakest) (there is no word for underdog) you can translate it literally as bajoperro but means nothing) "sobreperro" would be "overdog" anyway thanks for trying.

My school Spanish teacher would be ashamed at me mixing up over and under, but proud of me for using a subjunctive (que gane)

 

[spartan32]

So it didn't take long for the pointless "Cips" debate to start. Come on people, it's time to let that one go. He is a great a very talented chap, but he was simply a dick for way too long and got right up all the important people's noses. Life lesson there for kids coming through, and in general.

As for the team on the day, we need to protect our top guys as much as poss. McConnochie should start, quite frankly he's totally expendable and seems to be more of a glorified mascot then a serious starting contender (and I'm a bath fan). Billy is going to have to start I think, just hope he comes through ok. Someone's already mentioned stating billy on Sunday means he can hopefully rest next week and be fresh fro the tougher games towards the end. Totally agree.

Hope we can move the ball about Sunday, build some good momentum. Got loads of respect and time for the Tongans (imagine what they could do with a tonne of investment?), but we need to set down a heavy marker and put them to the sword, which we can certainly do.

This WC had a good feel about it generally. Hope it's a great one all round because the world could do with some good right about now

 

[MarkyH]

Cips is talented, but in a camp for 2 months + pre-season camps it goes back to what ex players have said about him. He rubs people up the wrong way. Different when he's going home after training, or after matches, or hanging with his mates but different when he's with you all day.

It's based on the sheer number of teams he seems to have fallen out with, and that, what is it 3? 4? separate England head coaches (with very different personalities and management styles) have kept him at best on the fringes of the squad despite his obvious talent. That's a big red flag to me

It's quite obvious he annoys people, and that's not good for the atmosphere.

Also, with Faz and Ford we still have absolute quality at FH, maybe can't do the extreme things Cips does, but within our game plan and structure why would we want him to? Ford can take the game to the line better than most, Faz is consistent and also an excellent 12. Cips can look good for teams who are mid table, or challenging for playoffs, but he would never fit in at Exeter or Saracens who rely on team excellence to actually WIN things.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Cips is talented, but in a camp for 2 months + pre-season camps it goes back to what ex players have said about him. He rubs people up the wrong way. Different when he's going home after training, or after matches, or hanging with his mates but different when he's with you all day.



It's quite obvious he annoys people, and that's not good for the atmosphere.

Also, with Faz and Ford we still have absolute quality at FH, maybe can't do the extreme things Cips does, but within our game plan and structure why would we want him to? Ford can take the game to the line better than most, Faz is consistent and also an excellent 12. Cips can look good for teams who are mid table, or challenging for playoffs, but he would never fit in at Exeter or Saracens who rely on team excellence to actually WIN things.

Yeah maybe if we were crying out for a creative FH who plays at the line, but Ford fills that niche and has a lot of caps, knows the systems, has familiarity with Faz - and is younger. It's not worth wasting game time on a 3rd FH in these circumstances, even if he really is everyone's best mate now, the fact is he's missed the boat.

Edit:

So it didn't take long for the pointless "Cips" debate to start. Come on people, it's time to let that one go.

Oops, sorry mate...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If only we had Steffon Armitage/Don Armand at 7, then we'd be fine

 

[ncurd]

Nick Abendanon, Carl Fearns

What we need is the France Exile XV

 

[MikeTheNative]

That NZ thrashing isn't out of the ordinary for this Tonga team, while I don't think it will be near that score, I reckon England will win by about 40 points.

 

[Which Tyler]

When did I ever say a player should be allowed to shoulder charge???

When you downvoted a post about shoulder charges without comment - it can be assuemd that you disagree with the content of said post