[RWC2019][Pool C] Round 2 - England vs. USA (26/09/2019)

[Vieux Talonneur]

Bit of a hot take, but....

Said pretty much the same in a group chat that I found more interesting that watching much of the game. Compared to Watson or Nowell, his footwork is non-existent, unless the ball is going to get to him at full tilt in space, I'm struggling to see much worth in him. Running people over isn't working.

That's the exact point. Coka's USP is rampaging and power. Give him the ball in a bit of space and I reckon he can seriously damage anyone. But it's incumbent on his team mates to work that space for him. He can make ground in confined spaces, but it's not really playing to his point of difference. He's never going to wriggle like Nowell.

 

[Scotty]

Don't remember a dodgy tackle from him, or any from a KO? Might have missed it as had a lot going on.

Very surprised Ford got POTM... I'd probably start Faz after that although Ford's distribution was excellent. JJ should have been awarded it IMO

Seriously? Its POTM? What happened to MOTM...they are all men on the pitch no need to change it.

JJ strong contender but tbh Ford had a grest game passing, some good tactical kicks pinning them back and 1 try and 2 assists if i remember right. Hard to argue.

 

[TommiG88]

JJ was my MOTM. Genge would be my impact sub at the weekend, was superb when he came on.

 

[Jimbo]

Hate to be pedantic about Farrell but, if I can refer you to the last S Africa game with 82.55 on the clock, right shoulder clearly aimed high and with his own head turned away neglecting any duty of care in the tackle. Farrell is a world star and a very good player, unfortunately his tackle technique is seriously questionable and as he frequently goes for the big hit his luck wont last forever. Either he'll get a red or someone will take exception to his conduct in the tackle area itself and take the appropriate action. Farrell makes not secret of playing very close to the lines in terms of legitimacy in an attempt to physically dominate opponents.

you can be as pedantic as you like the fact is the Outcomes were different Farrell did not make direct contact with the head where as the red carded player did, the outcome will always have a bearing on the sanction.

 

[Scotty]

Gutted to conceed 7 at the end but seriously we didnt conceed all game not a single point and never looked like. Until we decided to go for it at the end rather than getting it off the park and prob just switched off.

Lacking accuracy still but looking good in defence, 3 games 1 try conceded and that was a last min brainfart after we decided to play on rather than kick it out. It puts us in a good place to see how we are when the opponants get tougher.

 

[Rinkadink]

Seriously? Its POTM? What happened to MOTM...they are all men on the pitch no need to change it.

JJ strong contender but tbh Ford had a grest game passing, some good tactical kicks pinning them back and 1 try and 2 assists if i remember right. Hard to argue.

I agree but it's not hurting anyone and as it's officially POTM for the RWC I'm rolling with it.

Thought Ford's kicking game, especially place kicks, let him down. For JJ; what more does he have to do to get POTM?

 

[RedruthRFC]

That's the exact point. Coka's USP is rampaging and power. Give him the ball in a bit of space and I reckon he can seriously damage anyone. But it's incumbent on his team mates to work that space for him. He can make ground in confined spaces, but it's not really playing to his point of difference. He's never going to wriggle like Nowell.

I've been through it all in my head and gave up trying to think it through to a conclusion before I hit post last time. My feeling before I last rethought it is that I would sooner see him back his pace, take the outside and try to work a fend, but I suspect that this is an old donkey's out dated thinking on my part given that a touchline = a turnover.

Back to the point you highlighted, if the team is capable of putting a wing in to space at full tilt, wouldn't it be better to have someone stupidly quick taking it?

 

[mustardcharlie]

England will seriously have to improve their ball handling and passing if they are to get beyond the group stages, never mind QFs. I'm no statto, but better sides than Tonga and the USA will crucify them if they deck as much ball as they have done so far. The hit on Farrell leading to the red card was indeed a "cheap shot" but the boothill/hospital pass he was thrown would light up the eyes of any self-respecting wing forward, even if playing for Old Frumptonians 3rd XV.

 

[FLOBALOB]

That's the exact point. Coka's USP is rampaging and power. Give him the ball in a bit of space and I reckon he can seriously damage anyone. But it's incumbent on his team mates to work that space for him. He can make ground in confined spaces, but it's not really playing to his point of difference. He's never going to wriggle like Nowell.

Slightly contradictory. Rampaging and power doesn't suggest a need for space, the opposite in fact. Usually ,in space, the best way to beat defenders is with footwork and guile , not to try to run over them. At the moment Cokanasinga doesn't possess either in any great measure, in fact it seems surprisingly easy ,for a man of his size, for a single defender to stop him head on. People went overboard early doors about him, with ridiculous comparisons to Lomu (scw) and that was unfair on him.

 

[Mike Rolls]

That last minute try needlessly conceded really irritates me - imagine the scenario (admittedly pretty unlikely). England's last match is against France. They meet, both having three victories behind them and the match is a draw, with them level on match points including bonus points at the end of the game. SO it comes down to points difference - and Daley's stupod showboating has handed 7 points to France. Ok, they would both go through, but who gets the slightly easier route os pool leaders?
Mike

 

[Scotty]

Slightly contradictory. Rampaging and power doesn't suggest a need for space, the opposite in fact. Usually ,in space, the best way to beat defenders is with footwork and guile , not to try to run over them. At the moment Cokanasinga doesn't possess either in any great measure, in fact it seems surprisingly easy ,for a man of his size, for a single defender to stop him head on. People went overboard early doors about him, with ridiculous comparisons to Lomu (scw) and that was unfair on him.

Thing with joe he is powerful and makes ground but doesnt run over players that originally advertised but for me id like a fast wing on one side and him on the other, he can outpace alot of players, make some ground on a carry and if put in space(when using manu to good effect) he can be great because thats when he is hard to stop. Full pace in space, and can run over anything but a fully commited tackle.

Used right he could creat alot of space for JJ/Slade given they cant drift off him or manu.

I do think he will be something special if he stays injury free, next WC we will see the best of him as he is still so young atm same as Curry, itoje, and ludlam(who has impressed given his 1 season in the prem prior)

 

[ncurd]

Francis has been cited.

https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/485227

If this was not a fringe player I would be paying more attention.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Aye, we're past the two games where, realistically, he was going to be used.
If Slade is proper crocked it'd be more of an issue but I imagine EJ is looking at 12. Faz, 13. Manu, 22. JJ

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I've been through it all in my head and gave up trying to think it through to a conclusion before I hit post last time. My feeling before I last rethought it is that I would sooner see him back his pace, take the outside and try to work a fend, but I suspect that this is an old donkey's out dated thinking on my part given that a touchline = a turnover.

Back to the point you highlighted, if the team is capable of putting a wing in to space at full tilt, wouldn't it be better to have someone stupidly quick taking it?

Fair point, but if there is a clear run to the line then any winger should be able to take it. Joe's pretty quick in a straight line.

That seldom happens though, there's generally a defender or 2 in the vicinity and unless one of them really has him lined up Joe seems pretty good at escaping their clutches. I'm talking about breaking tackles, not trampling over people.

He's also got a happy knack of finding the try line, 7 in 9 caps and 12 in 29 at club level. Nowell's a more complete player, but internationally has 13 from 35 and 26 from 79 for Chiefs. Obvs a lot to factor in there including the opposition (FWIW 7 of Nowell's have been against Italy and Uruguay), but starts to paint a picture.

Depends what you want from your wings. Counter intuitively Nowell's probably the better bet for coming inside and making a few hard yards in traffic, although Joe may attract more defenders. Joe may be best employed wider and if Manu's creating havoc inside he may be a very good call. He's also still very young and his game will develop.

Watson, Daly and May are all sprinters. Too much of the same and with Daly's form I think Jones has a call to make. I'd bench Daly and move Watson to FB. Then depending on how we want to play (and fitness) it's Joe or Nowell to start.

 

[Pom in Exile]

Time will tell if having the supposed two easier games first up were beneficial or not. When I first saw the draw I thought it was quite positive to be able to build some momentum. So far this world cup is showing in my opinion the tier two nations have moved on in terms of their structure and defence from 2015 and previous competitions.

For someone who benefits from playing got match fitness etc Billy isn't tearing up trees for me in his form. Heinz looks the far better option for me on form too his quicker delivery is going to suit a route one gameplan utilising the big runners.​

Quicker delivery? We must have watched different matches. Heinz was slow as ****, I'm completely nonplussed as to why he's there over other 9s tbh.

 

[TommiG88]

Francis has been cited.

https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/485227

If this was not a fringe player

BBC reporting that it left Hooley with concussion, if that's true questions have to be raised why Hooley played another 70mins...

although I have the feeling that the BBC reporter didn't watch the game and just saw that Hooley went off with a head injury.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Quicker delivery? We must have watched different matches. Heinz was slow as ****, I'm completely nonplussed as to why he's there over other 9s tbh.

When the only alternative in Japan is Youngs he is 100% the quicker option

 

[FLOBALOB]

He's also got a happy knack of finding the try line, 7 in 9 caps and 12 in 29 at club level. Nowell's a more complete player, but internationally has 13 from 35 and 26 from 79 for Chiefs. Obvs a lot to factor in there including the opposition (FWIW 7 of Nowell's have been against Italy and Uruguay), but starts to paint a picture.

.

Also ,for balance , and FWIW 5 of cokas have been against Japan, 2 v an already beaten mighty USA and 2 v a comatose Ireland. Its a facile comparison , considering they are 2 different type of players,as you say. I'd also put Coka in the same group as the other wingers May,Watson and Daly as primarily being speed merchants.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

When the only alternative in Japan is Youngs he is 100% the quicker option

Barring injuries scrum half is the one thing that could really come back to bite us on the arse.

We've got a pack that can go toe to toe with anyone. Behind, Faz, May, Manu, JJ and Watson can stand in any company. Just a shame that Jones' blind spot has been the hinge that pulls it all together.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I am actually preferring to meet Australia in the quarters, rather than the Welsh.

Swapped to a slightly more appropriate thread:

Was thinking that, if the Aussies win then the France game will be like that game ye had in the soccer world cup where the loser got the better route to the final. There'd be absolutely no point playing a full team v France if you beat Argentina, I already think there's little enough reason to.