[RWC2019][Semi-Final 1] England vs. New Zealand (26/10/2019)

[j-dawg]

It's time for all rational thought to go out the window.

Start believing.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

It's time for all rational thought to go out the window.

Start believing.

ah yes, the start believing and cross fingers and toes. The only thing to do for us fans in the powerless position and desperate for their team to win and make the final.

Elation or crushing disappointment awaits. I can't wait!!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Fair, I'm wrong there. I'd still say he's nowhere near quick enough at international level to make up for him being weak af. Defences do ignore him on the reg.

Edit: it's not elite speed by any metric, which is what I meant in the original post but worded poorly.

Defences ignore Farrell too as he rarely if ever will make a threatening run. In terms of speed, game reading and ability to break apart a defence, I'd have Ford ahead of Farrell quite easily. In terms of hard front up tackles and intangible leadership qualities then I'd have Farrell ahead. I just really don't think Farrell is as good as people claim he is. We have had games without him numerous times and not lost them. He's also had the luxury of actually playing with 2 proper centres outside him when he has played, Ford has never been given that opportunity.

 

[bertiec]

How are you still salty about Farrell this far into the tournament? Ford was excellent in the pool and good when he came on vs Aus, but the tactic to start Farrell clearly worked. You claim there is no obvious reason for not dropping Farrell, but if you've followed the development of the team at all over the last few years you should know that:

- Farrell is the Captain, dropping the Captain for a semi-final is not exactly best practice.
- He is the driving force behind the attacking strategy on the training pitch (along with Ford) and executing it on the pitch.
- He is the leader of the defensive line and the loudest voice/motivator/organizer whenever the team defends (you can literally hear him on the ref mic constantly).
- He is the first choice goal kicker and has been one of the world's best under pressure at international level and major finals (aside from when he took the head knock against Argentina).
- Ford has been good too, but he doesn't have the same presence as Farrell within this team, he cannot lead from the front in the same way and he will always be a bit of a liability in defense. He is a fantastic front-foot player and tactical kicker, which is why there is a great case for starting him alongside Farrell, but there is no strong argument for starting him INSTEAD of Farrell.

At this point of a world cup cycle, one would think that fans should get behind the team (and arguably its most pivotal figure) rather than suggest sweeping changes - that are simply never going to happen and would be terrible decisions - just to satisfy a long-held vendetta against Faz.

I'll leave you with a favourite quote of mine: A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything

Ford has the best tackle stats of any 10 in Japan. I bet he does more legal tackles than Farrell.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

since I never see Faz make a break.

[sigh] Why always with the false hyperbole? Literally watch any highlight video and you'll see he makes breaks. He also does a far better job of offloading/making the right decision once he has broken the line. But, knowing that these subjective statements probably go against your perfect recollection of events (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you watch as much of Saracens as you do of Leicester), I present to you...THE STATS:

For England in 2019:

Ford
Clean Breaks: 5

Farrell
Clean Breaks: 6

Now I'm sure that Ford would make more breaks in general - he is faster and takes the ball to the line more frequently, BUT either you haven't watched England play this year or you need your eyes tested. Owen Farrell makes breaks.


Sources
https://www.rugbypass.com/premiership/teams/leicester/players/george-ford/statistics
https://www.rugbypass.com/premiership/teams/saracens/players/owen-farrell/statistics

 

[ncurd]

OH GOD can we please not have this worn out and tired Farrell v Ford debate.......I'm so damn sick of the same people arguing the same facts over and over.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

The funniest thing about the whole Ford / Farrell argument is that they are literally best mates, prefer playing together and (opinion alert) often play their best when supported on the field by the other. They would find this debate hilarious I'm sure.

 

[Goodey]

It's time for all rational thought to go out the window.

Start believing.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Farrells carrying has come on massively in recent seasons - made some nice breaks and has scored/set up some nice tries with his running lines.
Everything is to the extreme here - either Ford CAN'T tackle or Farrell CAN'T run. It's like you can't like one without hating the other

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Farrells carrying has come on massively in recent seasons - made some nice breaks and has scored/set up some nice tries with his running lines.
Everything is to the extreme here - either Ford CAN'T tackle or Farrell CAN'T run. It's like you can't like one without hating the other

I don't care what society wants, sometimes I like a bit of Faz and sometimes I fancy a bit of George. Who says a man can't have both?

From this day forward, I'm declaring myself officially Bi-Fordarell

 

[TRF_Olyy]

On the game this weekend: It's unlikely but I'd like to see Joseph start.
I do rate Slade but he isn't in form and looks like he's lost a yard of pace with his recent injury. JJ is out best defensive 13 and looked in fine form in his short cameos before.

 

[MarkyH]

Can I shock you?

I like Ford and Farrell at 10.

Why do we have to argue, both are great 10s. We're lucky to have them both. I just don't know how to fit Ford, Farrell, JJ, Tuilagi, Slade, Daly, Watson, May, Nowell and Cokanasiga into a team. No matter who drops out we have a class player, who's different to come in. Its exciting.

 

[ncurd]

Can I shock you?

I like Ford and Farrell at 10.

Why do we have to argue, both are great 10s. We're lucky to have them both. I just don't know how to fit Ford, Farrell, JJ, Tuilagi, Slade, Daly, Watson, May, Nowell and Cokanasiga into a team. No matter who drops out we have a class player, who's different to come in. Its exciting.

Simples play them at 9, 7, 6, 4 & 5!

 

[MarkyH]

Anyway, would love to see.... JFF and its only Monday

Mako
Sinks
George
Itoje
Kruis
Curry
Underhill
Wilson

Youngs
Farrell
May
Tuilagi
Joseph
Watson
Daly

LCD, Cole, Marler, Lawes, Billy, Heinz, Ford, Nowell/Slade

With Daly at 15 the lack of a 'play-maker' at 12/13 really shows how important Daly can be as an extra outside back. JJ's defensive reads are fantastic, his running and all round game is superb. JJ was/is world class. Ford to come on and show off. Billy to come on and empty the tank in the final 30. Wilson to be almost an extra flanker at the breakdown, and his fantastic defensive work-rate and his still above average carrying.

Hope it happens, won't be disappointed who we put out, our options are all fun

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Every mental advantage is with NZ going into this game, none of England's players have ever played a world cup semi, most haven't beaten NZ.

I think most of England's 23 on Saturday will have had experience of beating NZ: Cole, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Mako, Lawes, JJ and, of course, Manu were there for the 2012 win at Twickers, while Watson, Farrell, Daly, Mako, George, Itoje, Sinks, Lawes and Nowell played in the 2nd Lions test against the ABs in 2017. They won't be lacking confidence they can win.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

Eddies take on Ford vs Farrell. I must admit to having a soft spot for Eddie's approach to journos. They don't like his answers but he's not for moving. Basically he values both Ford and Farrell and understands how he wants to use them........

About 8:57

 

[spartan32]

Faz doesn't make like breaks v Ford can't tackle. Which worn out evidence less argument would win I wonder?!

for this game it clearly has to be Faz to start because he's the skipper and if Jones didn't fancy Ford against Australia he sure as hell ain't gonna roll him out for NZ. And personally i think it would be the right decision. Keep him on the bench to change it up later in the game.

I'm more interested in what EJ is going to do with the back 3 and second row? And whether he's gonna to drop an out of form Billy for a firing and hungry Wilson?

Curryhill are surely nailed on as starters, as are Sinckler, George, Etoji? In the backs Manu, Faz, Young's and May.

so do we stick with May, Daly Watson? I suspect the answer is yes. So then who gets the bench spot? Big Joe or Nowell? I suspect it'll be Nowell. Solid and experienced when it counts. Defo tempting to have Big Joe off the bench but I just don't think he has enough under I'm his belt yet.

As above Manu starts at 12 but for me it has to be JJ at 13. He's better in D than Slade, makes more line breaks and asks more questions. Yes his footballing may not be quite as good but it's hardly an issue either. He didn't even make it onto the pitch int he last game and I wonder if Jones knew the game was won and didn't want to risk him, because he wants him for for NZ?

As always it will be fascinating to see what side Jones goes with. And I agree with comments made above. This game is no longer about team selection or skill sets etc. England have the team, the skills, the fitness, the power and apparently the cohesion. Now they need passion, and lots of it. They have to want this more than NZ and go at them like there will never be another game of rugby. Nothing less will do. For me, the winner of this game will take it all.

 

[ncurd]

for this game it clearly has to be Faz to start because he's the skipper and if Jones didn't fancy Ford against Australia he sure as hell ain't gonna roll him out for NZ.

Eh EJ has suggested he may start with Ford, he's also said he may not it depends what tactics he wants to deploy at what stage of the game. I actually think its very fluid. Farrell is clearly going to start its just a question of 10 or 12. And I can't be arsed to argue my preference anymore.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

[sigh] Why always with the false hyperbole? Literally watch any highlight video and you'll see he makes breaks. He also does a far better job of offloading/making the right decision once he has broken the line. But, knowing that these subjective statements probably go against your perfect recollection of events (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you watch as much of Saracens as you do of Leicester), I present to you...THE STATS:

For England in 2019:

Ford
Clean Breaks: 5

Farrell
Clean Breaks: 6

Now I'm sure that Ford would make more breaks in general - he is faster and takes the ball to the line more frequently, BUT either you haven't watched England play this year or you need your eyes tested. Owen Farrell makes breaks.


Sources
https://www.rugbypass.com/premiership/teams/leicester/players/george-ford/statistics
https://www.rugbypass.com/premiership/teams/saracens/players/owen-farrell/statistics

Post me a vid of Faz making a 20m break?

farrell runs = 76
Ford runs = 39

Farrell played more minutes than ford by some distance yet only has 1 more clean break.


Now certainly I was being deliberately OTT in my comment cause no way is Farrell faster and being over dramatic is a great way to emphasise a average point.

side not it's interesting comparing their club stats,

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

so do we stick with May, Daly Watson? I suspect the answer is yes. So then who gets the bench spot? Big Joe or Nowell? I suspect it'll be Nowell. Solid and experienced when it counts. Defo tempting to have Big Joe off the bench but I just don't think he has enough under I'm his belt yet.

Each to their own I suppose

Also if we want to go for more stats, Farrell has 26 turnovers conceded to Fords 5, Ford runs more metres per carry, makes more clean breaks per time played, has a higher goal kicking rate, a higher tackle completion rate, fewer penalties conceded and more tries scored.

This isn't to bash Farrell, it's just to dispel the nonsense that somehow he is far and away our best FH and Ford just isn't up to it. There simply is no truth to that at all, they are both very capable 10's.