[RWC2019][Semi-Final 1] England vs. New Zealand (26/10/2019)

[Nubiwan]

My lasting impression on that game - despite all the wonderful defending we did - was just how much pressure England were able to exert with ball in hand. Tuilagi, Itoje, Vunipola and co made extra metres with each carry, and broke the gain line every time. An unprecedented display considering the opposition. Hard to believe England lead in the missed tackles category in reflection, so often did they punch through the initial contact. Defending was what is necessary at this, or any level, for that matter.

A complete England performance, and personally cannot remember an ABs side so dominated for 80. I wonder the fall out in NZ in the days ahead. Like it or not, surely some second guessing around selection of senior players etc. Must've been very disappointing for them to watch their side on the wrong end of that type of performance.

Wow! That was impressive from England, and quite dominant, which is the truly satisfying part.

 

[donmcdazzle]

My lasting impression on that game - despite all the wonderful defending we did - was just how much pressure England were able to exert with ball in hand. Tuilagi, Itoje, Vunipola and co made extra metres with each carry, and broke the gain line every time. An unprecedented display considering the opposition. Hard to believe England lead in the missed tackles category in reflection, so often did they punch through the initial contact. Defending was what is necessary at this, or any level, for that matter.

A complete England performance, and personally cannot remember an ABs side so dominated for 80. I wonder the fall out in NZ in the days ahead. Like it or not, surely some second guessing around selection of senior players etc. Must've been very disappointing for them to watch their side on the wrong end of that type of performance.

Wow! That was impressive from England, and quite dominant, which is the truly satisfying part.

Yep second guessing and question marks. More than anything, England were just more desperate, fired up, accurate, you name it. To see get out-passioned was disappointing. Losing sucks either way, but when they turn in that type of performance in the black jersey, pretty average.

A lot of guys playing their last games, so the team next year will be a lot different looking I expect. Coaching panel will be very interesting as well, may not have the same loyalty as the current mob (J. Barrett for example may not be seen for a long while yet in black).

 

[stormmaster1]

My lasting impression on that game - despite all the wonderful defending we did - was just how much pressure England were able to exert with ball in hand. Tuilagi, Itoje, Vunipola and co made extra metres with each carry, and broke the gain line every time. An unprecedented display considering the opposition. Hard to believe England lead in the missed tackles category in reflection, so often did they punch through the initial contact. Defending was what is necessary at this, or any level, for that matter.

A complete England performance, and personally cannot remember an ABs side so dominated for 80. I wonder the fall out in NZ in the days ahead. Like it or not, surely some second guessing around selection of senior players etc. Must've been very disappointing for them to watch their side on the wrong end of that type of performance.

Wow! That was impressive from England, and quite dominant, which is the truly satisfying part.

The missed tackle stat may be misleading. A few times a defender bolted out so a NZ player couldn't pass out, but could evade the tackle, often losing momentum in the process. Not sure how it didn't leave more dogleg gaps to run through.

The standout points of the defense were the line speed and intensity of the tackles plus the turnovers.

 

[Every Time Ref]

The missed tackle stat may be misleading. A few times a defender bolted out so a NZ player couldn't pass out, but could evade the tackle, often losing momentum in the process. Not sure how it didn't leave more dogleg gaps to run through.

The standout points of the defense were the line speed and intensity of the tackles plus the turnovers.

Yeah the system relies on missed tackles, basically, it involves players in wide channels going for tackles they are really only 50-50 likely to actually make, in order to force the attacker into making a decision England want him to.

He only has one option to avoid getting smashed way behind the gain line, which is to go back inside. England have then focussed more of their defenders in that one place.

It takes a lot of accuracy, discipline, organisation, fitness and skill to keep it working for 80 minutes and England pulled that off.

 

[Nubiwan]

Congratulations to England, you guys played great rugby! The game was as tough watch as an AB fan, but I really enjoyed how you played, good luck in the final.

So... This post may be too long for some readers, so I will do a TLDR at the bottom, but it would be cathartic to have a conversation with someone about the points I make, so I'd appreciate any responses to them.

I just want to start by praising England and Eddie Jones for that fantastic performance, we were lucky it wasn't 40-0, we were gifted that Ardie try which came from forward passes anyway. Your loose forwards were awesome, Itoje, Underhill, Lawes, Curry and Billy were absolutely powerful and great to watch and they destroyed us. Farrell and Ford were fantastic and kicked great and played smart stuff. Your outside backs exploited us nicely when they had the opportunity. Massive respect to your performance and team, you will be scary going forward from here. Good job, love that brand of rugby, we weren't in the game at all.

So onto the All Blacks.

It's taken me a few days to process and digest the disappointment I felt during and after this game. Not for losing, but the way in which we were completely blown off the park. The performance was terrible.

I pinpoint the Lions series as the beginning of our demise and the beginning of the erosion Steve Hansen's legacies demise.

All the problems we have had over the last 2 years were completely exposed by the ever so shrewd Eddie Jones and of course Steve Hansen created a few problems of his own doing.

Problems;
-Lack of continuity (particularly in the midfield)
-No real blindside, backrow too small.
-Favourites being selected when they're not good enough (Jordie Barrett)
-Leadership group not composed enough


Where to start? I guess I'll start with the line-up.

So, the 3 lock strategy fell on it's face in the first minute, worse than how we fell off tackles!!! TBH, I don't think Sam Cane could've prevented this start from England, who were again great out off the blocks vs Steve Hansen's All Blacks.

I lauded Foster's new attacking formations earlier in the thread and still believe it's great, but it won't get a chance to thrive, if we don't have the ball or secure good ball from proper backrow play, which Hansen has continued to neglect the last few years. What good is having all these fancy backline moves, if we don't have go forward ball!

We got a lesson in picking a proper backrow. We played vs a very, very good backrow. We have never replaced Kaino, I don't think we have a true proper world class blindside in the country and it's been a problem of the last 2 years since Jerome's retirement. We had absolutely no physicality to match them in the backrow, it was a slaughter by Underhill and Curry.

Steve Hansen's neglect in backrow forward play and securing good ball really got taken advantage off by Curry and Underhill. For some time now, our forwards have been 2nd best in a many of our games and Hansen seemed to want to focus on scoring wonderful tries in the backline instead of focus on securing us good ball. I desperately hope our next coach puts a lot more emphasis on our forward play.

Lack of continuity in the midfield; Not enough caps together, need I say more? Laumape left at home as well, who is a different player and option to Crotty and Goodhue who are basically the same player. We haven't built any combinations. I thought Hansen would value this dearly after coaching C.Smith and Nonu for so long!

Jordie Barrett on the bench over Ben Smith. This was a big one for me and has opened my eyes up over the last few years to seeing Steve Hansen's weaknesses as a coach. 99% of New Zealanders will tell you Jordie is not up to it and will lose you a game under pressure. First thing he does was try a stupid offload that leads to England 3 points and puts us out off the match. We were never in the match in reality, but on the scoreboard we were and a cool calm head like Ben smith could've offered an outlet of stability and composure to an already panicked backline, NOT JORDIE BARRETT!!!

I found this last 2 years our team has lacked composure under pressure, I look at the leadership group at failing to instil it (2018 Wellington game vs South Africa comes to mind). McCaw, Kanio, Carter, C.Smith's calm cool headed attitudes did not pass through into K.Read unfortunately, who looked like a stunned mullet every time England put points on the board. With Richie you knew the players believed in the words he said, Read is like an answering machine, push a button and he will say a generic polite motivational phrase. Our leadership group has not been good the last 2 years. Whitelock gave away a stupid penalty with 12 minutes to go when we finally built a little bit of momentum too, what sort of leader does that in the dying embers of a knock-out game? Yesh

Lack of a proper strategy when we are on the back foot. By the end of the game around 10 minutes to go, it turned into embarrassing catch up rugby and it was legitimately the most embarrassing I've seen the All Blacks if we forget about the hiding Australia dished us, we started throwing it around like NFL and schoolboy lunch time rugby stuff. The referees even felt sorry for us and ignored blatant forward passes while we chucked it around aimlessly and quite sadly. I was sat there thinking "After 8 years of building, this is it Steve?"

The post match interview really bothered me. His response to the reporter who asked whether or not the AB's attitude was right from kick-off was disgraceful, telling to reporter to come outside and he will "give him a rugby lesson" - WHAT!!! This was a perfect legit question to ask considering the way we came out, compared to how England came out. Did we think they were going to roll over like Ireland?

I felt Steve and Ian have put themselves on a pedestal because of their 2015 RWC win that we, the public, or the press can't question, probe or criticize them about mistakes or problems the team has had. They have been abrasive and at times arrogant or dismissive.

I don't want to demean or undervalue what Steve Hansen and Ian Foster have done for our rugby or the All Blacks, but they had the greatest squad rugby has ever seen from 2011-2015 and when finally they had to step up and do a bit of coaching, they haven't come through, arguably Foster has with the new backline plays, but Hansen has not.

I think, this cycle has been quite a big failure given the huge depth and talent we have, particularly the last 2 years and many bad records have been broken. I feel Hansen was slightly exposed after our golden generation retired.

I know this might be too negative and harsh on Hansen, but it's how I'm left feeling after this terrible performance by the All Blacks. Maybe in the future my opinion and feelings will change, but right now that's it.

Congratulations to England however, a fine clinical performance, that was a guilty pleasure to watch from the other side of the window. Congrats lads, enjoy it.


TLDR

-New attacking formations didn't have a chance to work because we were dominated at the breakdown
-Backrow failed vs a great English backrow because we don't have a proper blindside to pick and Hansen has neglected backrow play for awhile now
-Lack of continuity in key positions like centre
-picking favourites like Jordie when they haven't earned their place
-The leadership group lacked compsore and problem solving abilities (gave away stupid penalties)
-Interviews have no being great under Hansen
-Golden generation made him look a better coach than what he was possibly.

I might be missing something here, and understand he has had injury issues too, but If I am an ABs coach, I try my best to get Dane Coles on the field from the off. Impact players were in short supply for NZ yesterday. Hindsioght and all that, but Coles is a special player for me. Agree too with the Ben Smith comments. A lot of NZ backs looking at each other yesterday thinking WTF is happening?

I still think the manner of the defeat was as far from Hansen's realms of expectation as it could have been. I reckon a view shared by most posters on here.

 

[Paul Psychic Octopus]

I watched the game with a few (England) supporters. One friend kept saying he had never seen NZ playing so badly; I said it was because England were playing outrageously well. I guess it was a bit of both - or that one was a consequence of the other.

Not being an All Blacks expert (we don't play one another often enough, which is a shame), although I have Kiwi friends who are not short of an opinion, I would agree with your analysis. I might add to/embellish it as follows:

1. Playing a lock in the back row was meant to further disrupt our line out. But you already had an advantage there (numerically at least), Vunipola not being a line-out jumper. But it didn't work - England won 90% of its own line-out (more than NZ did).

2. Every coin has two sides and the bill was paid in the breakdown. The Kamikaze Kids have been a revelation, and 16 turnovers (the most in this World Cup?) tells you everything you need to know.

3. England conceded far fewer penalties than usual. Either that points to improved discipline by England, or NZ's inability to force them. But it reduced the opportunity for you to play on the front foot or keep the scoreboard ticking (or even get started).

4. I was surprised at how few players you committed to the breakdown. Rucks were an "All White on the Night" affair. Maybe you were worried abut England out wide and wanted to avoid getting narrow in defence?

5. Many England fans were a bit concerned about Daly in defence (in attack he's great), particularly under the high ball. But you barely asked any questions of him.

6. You might not like this last point, but NZ has a reputation among many fans for getting away with various misdemeanours off the ball. You know what I'm talking about so I don't need to mention them! But Nigel Owens seemed aware. I'll mention one - obstructing runners chasing a kick. He picked up the arm out on Ben Youngs, which meant an unnecessary penalty conceded as Youngs usually box kicks away possession.

All in all I was thrilled with England's performance, but still regard NZ as the benchmark. We've won one game - you've been on top for a decade. Like I said I wish the two teams could meet more often.

Congratulations to England, you guys played great rugby! The game was as tough watch as an AB fan, but I really enjoyed how you played, good luck in the final.

So... This post may be too long for some readers, so I will do a TLDR at the bottom, but it would be cathartic to have a conversation with someone about the points I make, so I'd appreciate any responses to them.

I just want to start by praising England and Eddie Jones for that fantastic performance, we were lucky it wasn't 40-0, we were gifted that Ardie try which came from forward passes anyway. Your loose forwards were awesome, Itoje, Underhill, Lawes, Curry and Billy were absolutely powerful and great to watch and they destroyed us. Farrell and Ford were fantastic and kicked great and played smart stuff. Your outside backs exploited us nicely when they had the opportunity. Massive respect to your performance and team, you will be scary going forward from here. Good job, love that brand of rugby, we weren't in the game at all.

So onto the All Blacks.

It's taken me a few days to process and digest the disappointment I felt during and after this game. Not for losing, but the way in which we were completely blown off the park. The performance was terrible.

I pinpoint the Lions series as the beginning of our demise and the beginning of the erosion Steve Hansen's legacies demise.

All the problems we have had over the last 2 years were completely exposed by the ever so shrewd Eddie Jones and of course Steve Hansen created a few problems of his own doing.

Problems;
-Lack of continuity (particularly in the midfield)
-No real blindside, backrow too small.
-Favourites being selected when they're not good enough (Jordie Barrett)
-Leadership group not composed enough

 

[Nubiwan]

I'd double that down with Liam Williams.

Edith Faff De Klerk anyone? Quit spinning the ball on your finger numpty.

 

[Goodey]

 

[easy2288]

Really great post

I totally agree with you.

I'm not as upset about Hansen though I think. You can only coach so much, ultimately the players are responsible and getting pushed around like children and panic passing in contact is more their fault than the game plan.

But then as you say that also comes back to selection. It's funny you used Jordie as an example because he's always been an issue for me. Not only do I think he's massively over rated, Ben Smith is one of my favorite players so I wasn't impressed with that decision.

You're right about the lack of composure, you could almost taste the panic after the first try.

It's hard to know what to think. Maybe because the game started at 1am here and I drank my own body weight in Guinness before the game but I think ultimately England were just so good. Like absolutely perfect.

I think I'll rewatch the game again in a week or 2 when it doesn't hurt as much, my hazy recollection of England's performance warrants a rewatch I think.

Congratulations to England, you guys played great rugby! The game was as tough watch as an AB fan, but I really enjoyed how you played, good luck in the final.

So... This post may be too long for some readers, so I will do a TLDR at the bottom, but it would be cathartic to have a conversation with someone about the points I make, so I'd appreciate any responses to them.

I just want to start by praising England and Eddie Jones for that fantastic performance, we were lucky it wasn't 40-0, we were gifted that Ardie try which came from forward passes anyway. Your loose forwards were awesome, Itoje, Underhill, Lawes, Curry and Billy were absolutely powerful and great to watch and they destroyed us. Farrell and Ford were fantastic and kicked great and played smart stuff. Your outside backs exploited us nicely when they had the opportunity. Massive respect to your performance and team, you will be scary going forward from here. Good job, love that brand of rugby, we weren't in the game at all.

So onto the All Blacks.

It's taken me a few days to process and digest the disappointment I felt during and after this game. Not for losing, but the way in which we were completely blown off the park. The performance was terrible.

I pinpoint the Lions series as the beginning of our demise and the beginning of the erosion Steve Hansen's legacies demise.

All the problems we have had over the last 2 years were completely exposed by the ever so shrewd Eddie Jones and of course Steve Hansen created a few problems of his own doing.

Problems;
-Lack of continuity (particularly in the midfield)
-No real blindside, backrow too small.
-Favourites being selected when they're not good enough (Jordie Barrett)
-Leadership group not composed enough


Where to start? I guess I'll start with the line-up.

So, the 3 lock strategy fell on it's face in the first minute, worse than how we fell off tackles!!! TBH, I don't think Sam Cane could've prevented this start from England, who were again great out off the blocks vs Steve Hansen's All Blacks.

I lauded Foster's new attacking formations earlier in the thread and still believe it's great, but it won't get a chance to thrive, if we don't have the ball or secure good ball from proper backrow play, which Hansen has continued to neglect the last few years. What good is having all these fancy backline moves, if we don't have go forward ball!

We got a lesson in picking a proper backrow. We played vs a very, very good backrow. We have never replaced Kaino, I don't think we have a true proper world class blindside in the country and it's been a problem of the last 2 years since Jerome's retirement. We had absolutely no physicality to match them in the backrow, it was a slaughter by Underhill and Curry.

Steve Hansen's neglect in backrow forward play and securing good ball really got taken advantage off by Curry and Underhill. For some time now, our forwards have been 2nd best in a many of our games and Hansen seemed to want to focus on scoring wonderful tries in the backline instead of focus on securing us good ball. I desperately hope our next coach puts a lot more emphasis on our forward play.

Lack of continuity in the midfield; Not enough caps together, need I say more? Laumape left at home as well, who is a different player and option to Crotty and Goodhue who are basically the same player. We haven't built any combinations. I thought Hansen would value this dearly after coaching C.Smith and Nonu for so long!

Jordie Barrett on the bench over Ben Smith. This was a big one for me and has opened my eyes up over the last few years to seeing Steve Hansen's weaknesses as a coach. 99% of New Zealanders will tell you Jordie is not up to it and will lose you a game under pressure. First thing he does was try a stupid offload that leads to England 3 points and puts us out off the match. We were never in the match in reality, but on the scoreboard we were and a cool calm head like Ben smith could've offered an outlet of stability and composure to an already panicked backline, NOT JORDIE BARRETT!!!

I found this last 2 years our team has lacked composure under pressure, I look at the leadership group at failing to instil it (2018 Wellington game vs South Africa comes to mind). McCaw, Kanio, Carter, C.Smith's calm cool headed attitudes did not pass through into K.Read unfortunately, who looked like a stunned mullet every time England put points on the board. With Richie you knew the players believed in the words he said, Read is like an answering machine, push a button and he will say a generic polite motivational phrase. Our leadership group has not been good the last 2 years. Whitelock gave away a stupid penalty with 12 minutes to go when we finally built a little bit of momentum too, what sort of leader does that in the dying embers of a knock-out game? Yesh

Lack of a proper strategy when we are on the back foot. By the end of the game around 10 minutes to go, it turned into embarrassing catch up rugby and it was legitimately the most embarrassing I've seen the All Blacks if we forget about the hiding Australia dished us, we started throwing it around like NFL and schoolboy lunch time rugby stuff. The referees even felt sorry for us and ignored blatant forward passes while we chucked it around aimlessly and quite sadly. I was sat there thinking "After 8 years of building, this is it Steve?"

The post match interview really bothered me. His response to the reporter who asked whether or not the AB's attitude was right from kick-off was disgraceful, telling to reporter to come outside and he will "give him a rugby lesson" - WHAT!!! This was a perfect legit question to ask considering the way we came out, compared to how England came out. Did we think they were going to roll over like Ireland?

I felt Steve and Ian have put themselves on a pedestal because of their 2015 RWC win that we, the public, or the press can't question, probe or criticize them about mistakes or problems the team has had. They have been abrasive and at times arrogant or dismissive.

I don't want to demean or undervalue what Steve Hansen and Ian Foster have done for our rugby or the All Blacks, but they had the greatest squad rugby has ever seen from 2011-2015 and when finally they had to step up and do a bit of coaching, they haven't come through, arguably Foster has with the new backline plays, but Hansen has not.

I think, this cycle has been quite a big failure given the huge depth and talent we have, particularly the last 2 years and many bad records have been broken. I feel Hansen was slightly exposed after our golden generation retired.

I know this might be too negative and harsh on Hansen, but it's how I'm left feeling after this terrible performance by the All Blacks. Maybe in the future my opinion and feelings will change, but right now that's it.

Congratulations to England however, a fine clinical performance, that was a guilty pleasure to watch from the other side of the window. Congrats lads, enjoy it.


TLDR

-New attacking formations didn't have a chance to work because we were dominated at the breakdown
-Backrow failed vs a great English backrow because we don't have a proper blindside to pick and Hansen has neglected backrow play for awhile now
-Lack of continuity in key positions like centre
-picking favourites like Jordie when they haven't earned their place
-The leadership group lacked compsore and problem solving abilities (gave away stupid penalties)
-Interviews have no being great under Hansen
-Golden generation made him look a better coach than what he was possibly.

Totally agreed on the analysis. I still find it hard to accept. But I saw ABS players smiling and joking during the yesterday and today press conference. England was planning for this match 4 years ago. Hansen said ABs lost 10 games out of 104 or 105. This is another game. This is NOT another game, this is World Cup rugby semifinal. Hansen has to take 50% of the blame for not planning well and not developing some players in advance. Some players are good but they are not ready for a grand tournament like this. This World cup is total flop for ABs and is due to bad management

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

All in all I was thrilled with England's performance, but still regard NZ as the benchmark. We've won one game - you've been on top for a decade. Like I said I wish the two teams could meet more often.

What made it really special is precisely that they don't. Less was definitely more.

The ABs have a habit of learning from their mistakes. They'll be back soon enough. If I were an AB fan, I'd be thinking......

Hansen's been around a long time. Fantastic record, but everyone has a shelf life. Similarly Read.

We got beaten by a team that played to a level few thought possible. It wasn't one that got away, it was a proper beating. C'est la vie, it happens to everyone, it just happened to be in a RWC semi. Most Kiwis seem to fully accept this.

There's plenty of talent. BUT I wouldn't be harking back to the McCaw, Carter, Nonu, Smith, Kaino side. That was one of the greatest teams ever, in any sport, not just rugby. There's always going to be a fall off from that.

Did Eng's haka response have an impact? Sounds daft, but some people reckon that some ABs were distracted by it.

We will kick the total cr*p out of Wales on Friday.

 

[Reiser99]

I think part of it is that actually the NZ squad that won 2011 and 2015 was actually an aberration in sport and dominance like that shouldn't really happen. This world cup has seen the AB's return to reality where they are an excellent side and one of the best in the world, but are certainly not invincible. Going forward NZ will continue to be one of the best sides in the world, if not the best. However the days of Carter, Smith McCaw, Kaino etc... are unlikely to ever be repeated because the nature of sport means it shouldn't.

 

[ncurd]

I think part of it is that actually the NZ squad that won 2011 and 2015 was actually an aberration in sport and dominance like that shouldn't really happen. This world cup has seen the AB's return to reality where they are an excellent side and one of the best in the world, but are certainly not invincible. Going forward NZ will continue to be one of the best sides in the world, if not the best. However the days of Carter, Smith McCaw, Kaino etc... are unlikely to ever be repeated because the nature of sport means it shouldn't.

I think rugby has only ever seen two dominant sides the 11/15 Ab's and the '03 Eng.

I think some complacency got stuck into the AB's that caused issues that led to a delayed reaction. Post 2015 the Rugby Championship was a mess, Aus had peaked and started their downward slide, SA were a right mess and Argentina are well Argentina.

Ireland gave them a bloody nose but this was quickly avenged. The autumn internationals go as expected.

Lions tour, due to negative tactics and SBW its a draw instead of a Lions win. Excuses are made ABs still the greatest go on kick everyones ass in the RC again despite the other teams being shite. Questions were not asked of ABs and carried 'woooohhh we're the best'



Reality is whist in this cycle the AB's still belived they were 2015 good and they weren't and didn't really wake up to this fact until it was way too late. They are and still remain one of the best teams in the world but they are mortal now and have been all cycle. Only because other teams were so poor did they really not notice this.

 

[Goodey]

England could face fine following their response to New Zealand's haka

A lot of coulds and possiblys in that article, so it's not really news. But this bit made me laugh

"[Joe Marler] said he got confused," Mako Vunipola said. "He thought he was supposed to go all the way around it and go to their 10. But because of that, he's the one who has to pay the fine. He dishes it out a lot so the boys would be more than happy if he has to pay it."

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think rugby has only ever seen two dominant sides the 11/15 Ab's and the '03 Eng.

In the pro era maybe. Suspect the Welsh might mention the 70s......

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Reality is whist in this cycle the AB's still belived they were 2015 good and they weren't and didn't really wake up to this fact until it was way too late. They are and still remain one of the best teams in the world but they are mortal now and have been all cycle. Only because other teams were so poor did they really not notice this.

This is it, I think there was a bit of hubris from the coaching staff involved too. Last year they realised they needed to change when we beat them, they implemented the dual playmakers and thought it'd be grand.

Thing is, at the end of 2018 Ireland weren't at a world cup winning level, things that both sides failed to realise. Ireland were better at the end of 2017 and 6n and it wasn't our best performance in our brief period at the top. England built on their own gameplan, continued the hard press and worked to cover the wide channels in behind with a more athletic back three and the dual playmakers were nullified and England have a more attacking back three and more dynamic backrow than Ireland had in that game too to do damage in attack.

To be honest, I don't think there was much that could have been done without cloning Beauden and even then I'm not sure. England playing at that level with that start won't be beaten by the players NZ have but they used their 12 months leading up to this tournament almost as badly as we did.

 

[Nudger]

In the pro era maybe. Suspect the Welsh might mention the 70s......

They never beat the allblacks

 

[Nudger]

It looked to me that NZ played super rugby while England played test match rugby

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/make-or-break-for-ford-and-england-andy-goode

 

[ncurd]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/make-or-break-for-ford-and-england-andy-goode

Nice to know most on here know more about rugby than Mr. Goode

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Nice to know most on here know more about rugby than Mr. Goode

Oh i'm going to find all the articles from "experts" saying Ford should not be in the england squad over the last 12 months.

#NotpettyIswear