[RWC2019][The Final] England vs. South Africa (02/11/2019)

[Scotty]

In the famous words of Victor Matfield: " I'll take an ugly win over a beautiful defeat every time".

Rassie has made it clear that we won't be playing to score tries. And my guess is we will continue with the same style we did against Wales.

But what will be interesting is who will Rassie pick. for me he should seriously consider to start all the guys that are playing in England. Koch, Mostert, Flouw, Faf or Reinach, and dare I say it Willie. These guys have first hand knowledge of their opponents, and might even pick up on things in the match.

The thing is I think we will go with the same team as against Wales, depending on injuries.

Yes and i imagine everyone of these have lost to Sarries been hit by underhill and turned over by curry

 

[ncurd]

We're all sticking with Ford-Farrell-Tuilagi right?

I'm unsure how we don't andt logic behind not. Score one of our sub 2 minute trys and SA are already chasing a game where they've struggled in attack all tournament. Sure they'll see it coming but so have many other sides and they just haven't been able to live it.

 

[ncurd]

Yes and i imagine everyone of these have lost to Sarries been hit by underhill and turned over by curry

TBF Flouw knows what it's like to get hit by Underhill in training....probably goes something like 'run away'.

 

[Scotty]

TBF Flouw knows what it's like to get hit by Underhill in training....probably goes something like 'run away'.

TBH there are 2 players im really worried about in that SA team(not that others arnt great) and neither of them played on saturday, you add Reinach and Kolbe to that team and it is scary because they are both rapid and kolbe is so elusive with Reinach running the best support lines in the game.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Oh my goodness I hope it isn't Garces. Felt he was very inconsistent with the ruck. Its like he handled the two teams from different sets of rules there. We got away with a few forward passes again (I counted at least two) whereas Wales were brought back. Wales' line out trowing was horribly skew throughout and not once picked up on. Also thought he let a few foul plays go though TBF there wasn't a lot in it (a few shoulder charges and neck grabs from both teams in clearing out, that deliberate slap down from Wales with Nkosi in the clear). Also, a lot of players sealing off at the ruck. He rewarded the SA scrum for dominance even if we made at least one technical error I saw where Wales should've gotten at least a free kick. So, no huge howlers but just a generalized inconsistency and refusal to police the ruck that I felt tended to keep us from competing at the ruck and at the Welsh line-out which is a huge part of our game plan. I could in the same game appreciate it if Welsh fans thought they were hard done by. Its that painting the whole game with a soft brush that irks me more than what one or two poor calls would.

 

[ncurd]

 

[Jer1cho]

Personally I would way prefer Owens over Garces. Garces is just far too inconsistent for my liking.

 

[Hydraulxx]

please no Garces... I get ptsd every time he refs

 

[ikvat]

If south africans are able to being more boring then against welshs, they have a small chance. I was sleeping ten minuts after the begin of the match.
Sometime, hypnosis can be the solution.

 

[User1245]

Yep 100x Owens over Garces

 

[unrated]

Wow the flood of dislikes by the English posters really shows there is no love lost. Got more dislikes in one day then in all the time since this system was implemented on TRF.

I know its going to be a close game, regardless if one team is playing very well and the other one being lethargic its a final and everyone steps up. Even that French team of 2011 made it close. Finals are a grind. I don't think anyone should look at the performance against Wales as how we play as Rassie said we adapt to the team we are playing against. Against the All Blacks we do play a much more running and ball in hand approach and vs Wales faf took the box kick to new levels. Winning ugly is part of the plan and if England is thinking oh we looked so flashy vs NZ and that equates to the final already being won then they are making a huge mistake. The final will play out just like the Wales vs sa match purely based on the fact that finals are percentage rugby. Eddie Jones knows this, so Dont bash the Welsh for the boring play as you will see England do it against the Boks this weekend. If they try and swing it out wide too quickly they will suffer and the Boks will run away.

England is favourites as number one in the world but I think we should win as our forwards are much better than theirs. Their Backs are better than ours though and if they can start like they did in the South African tour then I think they will take the cup. If its level or sa is leading by the 60 minute mark then I can't see England winning it based on our strong bench. But at the end of the day it's a rugby World Cup final and who knows what will happen everything up until then is just opinion and speculation.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Other than Flouw, who are the breakdown specialists in the Boks pack? Marx?
Siya and PSDT are more industrious workhorses than pilferers

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Can I just say that I feel so much better now that I know Wales cannot win it.

So i'm good.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Other than Flouw, who are the breakdown specialists in the Boks pack? Marx?
Siya and PSDT are more industrious workhorses than pilferers

Isn't Vermeulen an excellent breakdown worker?

 

[Grizwald]

Going to be a long wait until Saturday. I was really liking what I was seeing from the Boks 12-18 months ago, adding some attacking flair to the usual combative monster pack. But seem to have been playing within themselves, I also expected them to be more physically dominant over a patched up Wales than they were. England can't and if they are smart won't try to get into an arm wrestle with the Boks, it will be interesting to see how how the Bok pack deal with a smaller but arguably more mobile England back row and tight 5.

I expect Jones will and IMO should stick with Ford at 10, de Allande is a big lump but less so than Samu Kerevi which justified his exclusion in the QF. The All Black's kicked a lot in the first half on Saturday and didn't get much joy, and you'd say neither will SA if they try to do the same, They'll have to play a lot more rugby to beat England which in turn will open things up.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Isn't Vermeulen an excellent breakdown worker?

Good point,
Locks and Beast are reasonable too - I guess it's a pack effort rather than having a true openside

 

[Zerobound]

Some interesting things going into the Final:


Eddie jones assistant Bok coach 2007
John Mitchell coached in SA and SA is his new home
Jones coached against England and lost in 2003 WC Final, might win with England
Both Jones and Mitchell were released from south African unions to coach England

ENGLAND WINS

England joins Aus and SA by winning 2 World Cups


SA WINS

Eddie Jones loses 2 world cup finals, first for a coach

SA record equalling 3rd time winners of world cup
First time ever a loser of a pool game wins World cup
Rassie 18 months with Boks and wins, unprecedented
South Africa stay unbeaten in World Cup Finals

Also if South Africa win they will have the best percentage of wins per tournaments played. 3 from 7 compared to New Zealand's 3 from 9.

 

[Jer1cho]

Other than Flouw, who are the breakdown specialists in the Boks pack? Marx?
Siya and PSDT are more industrious workhorses than pilferers

Only Vermeulen. It's a big reason I say Marx needs to start. England were phenomenal at the breakdown against NZ and while Bongi is solid, he offers nothing in terms of pilfers. Marx is the best pilferer we have. It's the same as when we played Bismark in that role because Schalk Burger never stole anything.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Other than Flouw, who are the breakdown specialists in the Boks pack? Marx?
Siya and PSDT are more industrious workhorses than pilferers

Ja, we've ditched the pilferer altogether to accommodate both PSdT and Kolisi (c) so no specialist as such. We havn't had a specialist pilferer since Brussow in the openside haydays ~2009/2010. Thank Bismarck and Vermeulen for that. Marx, Vermeulen and if he comes on Louw are decent on the ground with our other forwards also getting in o the action every so often. De Allende also has a penchant for pilfering and/or counter-rucking. You don't see Kolisi (c) pilfering but he counter rucks with the best of them.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

If England didnt play Gatland-ball in the QF and SF (when they would have been viable options) then they sure as hell shouldnt be hiding back in their shells in the final (against a side who would welcome that). The Boks gifted a fairly toothless Welsh selection every chance of victory by being so conservative, and England would risk doing the same if they play very tight in the final. Ford must have earnt the starting berth in the final, so Slade will likely miss out. England left a bucketload of points out there against the ABs so have a lot of upward potential even beyond that performance.

I've been very disappointed in the Boks in this RWC, despite them reaching the final (and the fact a lot of Tier1 sides have not brought their 'A' game). They seemed to be opening up their style a bit over the past 18 months to reflect the running talent at their disposal at halfbacks and backline and were scoring tries for fun in the Rugby Championship but have completely turned their backs on that in this tournament (against any meaningful opposition).

I'm struggling to see how they can change gears and score tries from open play and, unless England do something strange tactically, then multiple tries will be required to lift the trophy. If England get a try early, surely the Boks will have to reconsider their tactics?

As per previous threads I have seen little evidence of the Boks being a top defence (yes, yes - still statistically no.1 at the tournament), and I expect England to cut loose here and have additional self belief over what they had in the semi. I'm thinking by 25-30 points when we factor in the extra days rest, even though the natural assumption for a final is for it to be tight. Both sides performances against the ABs is a reflection of reality in my opinion. The ABs were pretty ordinary by their own standards in both those matches.