[RWC2019][The Final] England vs. South Africa (02/11/2019)

[TRF_heineken]

Ja, we've ditched the pilferer altogether to accommodate both PSdT and Kolisi (c) so no specialist as such. We havn't had a specialist pilferer since Brussow in the openside haydays ~2009/2010. Thank Bismarck and Vermeulen for that. Marx, Vermeulen and if he comes on Louw are decent on the ground with our other forwards also getting in o the action every so often. De Allende also has a penchant for pilfering and/or counter-rucking. You don't see Kolisi (c) pilfering but he counter rucks with the best of them.

But we don't really need a specialist pilferer, because we have a few guys who can do that, and because the pilferer is nowadays being targeted so much at the rucks, we rather have a bunch of guys who can actually do it.

You are forgetting Kitshoff, De Allende, Am, Mapimpi and Nkosi are pretty good at stealing a ball at a ruck.

 

[Jer1cho]

As per previous threads I have seen little evidence of the Boks being a top defence (yes, yes - still statistically no.1 at the tournament)

Has seen little evidence, proceeds to bracket evidence right afterwards.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

These are the two teams I thought were a little bit overrated coming into the tournament. England have proven me wrong in the last two weeks. South Africa not so much, obviously a strong team but a clear third best ahead of a weak bunch after only being able to scrape by an injured Welsh team in my opinion, maybe that'll change next week but I wouldn't be putting money on it.

I can't see England losing, there's a clear evolution from Cardiff this year and there'll be no lack of concentration like against Scotland.

Can't wait til the whole things over, been a **** cup from where I'm watching.

 

[Jer1cho]

Seems a lot of people dislike giving us credit. Overrated, easiest route to the final, most boring, not really in the top 2 teams, undermining the Japan win, undermining the Wales win.

Ok, I'm going to remind a lot of you about something. We were in utter shambles as close as 2 years ago. We lost our identity as a team, we lost our 'aura', and we conceded record losses against everyone.
Rugby for us is not a 6 week sport, and it does not get 'reset' after the last game you played. It is the culmination of building a team with a goal, and a purpose, and realising that down doesn't mean out.

We got a new coach after the lowest moments in our 100 plus year history (After politically appointed coaches, government interference, and half a country looking for any reason to hate us.) Heck even throughout this campaign there has been an agenda to divide the team racially, and to start fires anywhere possible. He had 2 years to get to a WC final with a team in turmoil, a goal which he has achieved. So here are some reminders to those of you who have short memories. In that 2 years we:

Won a series against England
Beat NZ in their own back yard, after it hadn't been done for a number of years
Won the Rugby championship
Went from number 7 in the world, to now number 2
Gave a country in desperate need of hope, a shining light in our first black captain
Regained our mantle as one of the most physical teams in the sport

So sure, look at us as a whole in what you have seen in this tournament, but those of us who's blood is green do not look at this way. In fact, we have already won, even if we go down in this final. I for one give my team massive plaudits, and massive credit, because my team has done me proud, and our whole country is proud.

You will see tears in our anthem on Saturday, and that alone makes this journey one we are proud of. Regardless of the haters, we came farther in this short time than any other country, and I will stick by that statement.

I do not expect us to win, but I am still proud of our effort, and this is only the beginning for us.

 

[saulan]

So this isn't exactly the final matchup I wanted. Just moved to London a couple of days ago and believe I'm the only South African in the office. So either my first week of work next week is either going to be great or terrible.

Nevertheless, I plan on watching the game in an English pub with my Springbok jersey on. I don't believe this will be a high scoring game and I think it should be close given the two best defenses in the tournament, but I'm not feeling particularly confident. Still have faith though and am looking forward to kick-off.

 

[Gena_ZA]

 

[ThatLondonFella]

Seems a lot of people dislike giving us credit. Overrated, easiest route to the final, most boring, not really in the top 2 teams, undermining the Japan win, undermining the Wales win.

Ok, I'm going to remind a lot of you about something. We were in utter shambles as close as 2 years ago. We lost our identity as a team, we lost our 'aura', and we conceded record losses against everyone.
Rugby for us is not a 6 week sport, and it does not get 'reset' after the last game you played. It is the culmination of building a team with a goal, and a purpose, and realising that down doesn't mean out.

We got a new coach after the lowest moments in our 100 plus year history (After politically appointed coaches, government interference, and half a country looking for any reason to hate us.) Heck even throughout this campaign there has been an agenda to divide the team racially, and to start fires anywhere possible. He had 2 years to get to a WC final with a team in turmoil, a goal which he has achieved. So here are some reminders to those of you who have short memories. In that 2 years we:

Won a series against England
Beat NZ in their own back yard, after it hadn't been done for a number of years
Won the Rugby championship
Went from number 7 in the world, to now number 2
Gave a country in desperate need of hope, a shining light in our first black captain
Regained our mantle as one of the most physical teams in the sport

So sure, look at us as a whole in what you have seen in this tournament, but those of us who's blood is green do not look at this way. In fact, we have already won, even if we go down in this final. I for one give my team massive plaudits, and massive credit, because my team has done me proud, and our whole country is proud.

You will see tears in our anthem on Saturday, and that alone makes this journey one we are proud of. Regardless of the haters, we came farther in this short time than any other country, and I will stick by that statement.

I do not expect us to win, but I am still proud of our effort, and this is only the beginning for us.

Couldn't of put this better myself. This campaign has already got us a victory in that we're 2nd in the World, which is HUGE for SA.

I'm not expecting us to win on Saturday, but I like the underdog tag. I feel we'll play better that way. Write us off at your own peril...

 

[MikeTheNative]

England's rush defence is brilliant at cutting down space out wide and stopping players who are getting the ball of ten. However you saw Wales in the 6 nations get a bit of joy with a series of tight pick and gos, England's defence is usually quite spread so it gives valuable metres gained and might get a bit of quick ball. SA should be suited for this so you would expect them to this a bit.

 

[ThatLondonFella]

So this isn't exactly the final matchup I wanted. Just moved to London a couple of days ago and believe I'm the only South African in the office. So either my first week of work next week is either going to be great or terrible.

Nevertheless, I plan on watching the game in an English pub with my Springbok jersey on. I don't believe this will be a high scoring game and I think it should be close given the two best defenses in the tournament, but I'm not feeling particularly confident. Still have faith though and am looking forward to kick-off.

I too am the only Saffa in the office. I too will be wearing my jersey around London with pride and the tears will flow singing that anthem.

 

[ncurd]

Couldn't of put this better myself. This campaign has already got us a victory in that we're 2nd in the World, which is HUGE for SA.

Don't think you realise how great this campaign has been for England. 4 years ago we were dumped out at the group stages of our own world cup (the only home side this has happened to).

Pre-tournament the fixture list was against us, the group stages has us playing Argentina then France. A QF against Aus/Wales and a SF V NZ/SA if we won those games we only managed the final against a firm pre-tournament fav of NZ/Wal/Ire/SA. England have shown potential be always horlicks up the big games and never strung a series of results together for close to 2 years. Reality was a QF exit was on the cards and most didn't have hope beyond a SF if we got that far. To be in the final with last two performances under belt is huge.



Both team deserving to be here and both probably performing better than expected.

 

[TheOvalBall]

Saturday's final is not only between two lifelong enemies, but also between two very astute coaches.

 

[BakkiesBokke]

I'm back in SA (I was in the UK for all previous World Cups we competed in). It's awesome to be living it here with my fellow Capetonians.

I fear we won't match England, and will be surprised if they lose it. That said, I'm hoping we can pull of something special - maybe some Kolbe magic will help!

 

[Jer1cho]

Don't think you realise how great this campaign has been for England. 4 years ago we were dumped out at the group stages of our own world cup (the only home side this has happened to).

Pre-tournament the fixture list was against us, the group stages has us playing Argentina then France. A QF against Aus/Wales and a SF V NZ/SA if we won those games we only managed the final against a firm pre-tournament fav of NZ/Wal/Ire/SA. England have shown potential be always horlicks up the big games and never strung a series of results together for close to 2 years. Reality was a QF exit was on the cards and most didn't have hope beyond a SF if we got that far. To be in the final with last two performances under belt is huge.



Both team deserving to be here and both probably performing better than expected.

This is a big reason why I think England deserve to win this. England is the only other country who's media is as hard on their teams as us, even calling for Eddie's head a few times. They have grown into a team who I feel are simply the best in the world right now. There was a very similar feel with us in 2007, which is why I think the roles will be reversed now. That series win in Aus was so massive in today's context, and I feel the same way about their Rugby team as I did their cricket team. They just seem destined to win this after what they have achieved. I also think that beating all 4 SH teams and winning the Cup after what happened in their own back yard is testament to how far they have come.

While I think that the stars have aligned for us, I think England winning is written in those very same stars.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

But we don't really need a specialist pilferer, because we have a few guys who can do that, and because the pilferer is nowadays being targeted so much at the rucks, we rather have a bunch of guys who can actually do it.

I inferred as much. Vermeulen has been at it since his days with Bissie (hence me saying "thank Bismarck for that") and Marx is something of a continuation of Bismarck WRT carrying a load of the 'pilferer' work.

You are forgetting Kitshoff, De Allende, Am, Mapimpi and Nkosi are pretty good at stealing a ball at a ruck.

I did mention De Allende and that a few others of the forwards pitch in with a steal now and then. I just don't think one can mention them alongside Marx, Vermeulen and Louw. The other backs also don't have a patch on De Allende WRT work at the breakdown as in you see them every now and then but they aren't *known* for their work at the breakdown.

I heard (on Youtube) that we are 2nd for pilfers in behind England and leading at line-out both ITO accuracy at our own and at stealing. Also on top ITO defensive stats. Probably why we like playing without the ball. Kicking accuracy and handling will have to improve though.

 

[User1245]

Saturday's final is not only between two lifelong enemies, but also between two very astute coaches.

I still remember when Rassie was with the Cheetahs, sitting on the stadium roof calling the shots with those colour boards. That was innovative and out of the box. He's definitely more low key now, and sometimes I do doubt his astuteness (forgive me) but he has been delivering the results we need. Here's hoping he can deliver one more against the odds

 

[ncurd]

One story not mentioned yet this thread, Eddie Jones is the first head coach to be involved in the final twice (as head coach). If England lose you have to feel sorry for him after such a successful career to miss out on top prize twice.

If he does win does he retire? Surely nothing else he can do now.

 

[User1245]

One story not mentioned yet this thread, Eddie Jones is the first head coach to be involved in the final twice (as head coach). If England lose you have to feel sorry for him after such a successful career to miss out on top prize twice.

If he does win does he retire? Surely nothing else he can do now.

B&I Lions? Next tour is in SA

 

[TheOvalBall]

One story not mentioned yet this thread, Eddie Jones is the first head coach to be involved in the final twice (as head coach). If England lose you have to feel sorry for him after such a successful career to miss out on top prize twice.

If he does win does he retire? Surely nothing else he can do now.

I always feel you have to defend the World Cup after winning it. Winning it is fabulous, but as a coach, you need to learn how to defend it. Hansen was the first coach to do it.

My view anyway.

 

[ncurd]

B&I Lions? Next tour is in SA

Gatland already has the job......so we'll pick a bunch of Welsh players who don't deserve to be there whilst playing negative tactics and chalk up a draw as a victory even though a victory was on the cards like we did 2 years ago.

 

[ncurd]

I always feel you have to defend the World Cup after winning it. Winning it is fabulous, but as a coach, you need to learn how to defend it. Hansen was the first coach to do it.

Hansen didn't though he inherited a team he was part of the coaching staff for. No coach has defended a world cup a team has.

Can't see EJ staying for 4 years and the plan is for him to leave after 2 and even then I wouldn't be surprised to see him leave in a few weeks time regardless of the result.