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[RWC2019][The Final] England vs. South Africa (02/11/2019)

Pom in Exile

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Lourens

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I'm not one for conflict, and believe it's just as important to win with class than to lose with class....but I think this is one of those times....MAN UP AND ADMIT THAT THIS IS SOUR GRAPES.
 

TRF_Olyy

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Wales online lol
 

ncurd

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https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/jeremy-guscott-calls-key-law-17236622

More sour grapes from England. Nothing stopping them developing their own bomb squad
Learn to read,

First off I can't find the original article Guscott wrote(https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/features/columnists/jeremy-guscott/). If an article quotes another article alway go get the original article. And this is the reason why

At no point in the entire Wales Online article do they quote Guscott as saying anything about SA or their so called Bomb Squad (first time I'm hearing this term). Sour grapes? Nope just Wales Online smearing an English pundit and you wanting in turn to smear English fans.
 

TRF_heineken

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Completely side note: Did anyone feel Garces was allowing SA too much time at the scrum to get a penalty? I say this because in recent years if the ball is available to the SH I've seen many a collapse or stood up scrum not be blown and the game just carry on. You play the ref on the day and all that and it doesn't excuse England getting beasted but I thought WR were trying to stop scrums become penalty generating machines in these situations.
The way I see it with regards to the scrum is that the referees in general, and not just Garces, tend to only say "Use It' if the ball is under the no. 8's feet and the scrum is static. While one team is in a position to move the scrum whether it's forward or sideways (wheeling), they tend to see what happens and then either blow it or let play continue.

But Garces was consistent throughout the tournament with allowing the scrums to progress. He didn't change anything in the final. And here I guess it was advantageous to us as it was the third game in the tournament we played where he was the referee.

Referees in general also tend to allow the stronger scrum to get the upper hand. I mean, when it was our put in at the scrum, our hooker has to hook, and the rest of the guys push. Our pack was overall lighter in weight than England's and with our put in, it was a 7 vs. 8 push initially and we still destroyed them.

For me, I don't really understand why the biggest discussion is about the scrums. In fact this was the one area I said that we will target before the match happened. And the scrums has been the one area where we have dominated the last 2 or so years, no matter who the referee was. Sure there were scrums where we gave away penalties, you can't win them all, and sometimes a lapse in concentration or slip causes the other team to gain the upper hand. But in general we have been very successful at the scrums, regardless of the opposition.
 

TheOvalBall

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Are we still talking about this ? :D
The result won't change unless you can time travel. :)
 

Pom in Exile

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I'm not one for conflict, and believe it's just as important to win with class than to lose with class....but I think this is one of those times....MAN UP AND ADMIT THAT THIS IS SOUR GRAPES.
FFS, seems to me that some of you fellas have extremely thin skin and are actively looking for offence where there is none. I don’t want to use words like snowflakes and millennials but seriously...grow the **** up.
 

Ddanno

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FFS, seems to me that some of you fellas have extremely thin skin and are actively looking for offence where there is none. I don’t want to use words like snowflakes and millennials but seriously...grow the **** up.
I think Lourens may have had tongue firmly in cheek
 

Hydraulxx

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Seriously @Hydraulxx ? You’ve kind of proved my point for me. All of these modern internet words...that’s you that is!
i don't really care about the context, i just disliked your post and disagree with your views. IMO you're the one that has taken offense rather than anyone else
 

Old Hooker

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Referees in general also tend to allow the stronger scrum to get the upper hand. I mean, when it was our put in at the scrum, our hooker has to hook, and the rest of the guys push. Our pack was overall lighter in weight than England's and with our put in, it was a 7 vs. 8 push initially and we still destroyed them.
That didn’t ring true so I checked with Wikipedia. Any player stat is unreliable, but at least Wiki is consistently unreliable.

Overall Eng 933 kg Boks 940

In the front row Eng 358 kg v SA 350. From our perspective Cole’s past it and Mako has never been better than an average scrummager at best - we really need to learn this lesson. Doubt Sinckler would have made much difference bar better quality verbals.

The difference is stark at lock 230 kg Eng vs 248 SA.

Lawes 2.01, 115 and Itoje 1.95, 115 vs Etzebeth 2.03, 123 and De Jäger 2.06, 125.

For all our claims to have 4 world class locks this is something we really need to think about.

Back row pretty even Eng 345 (distorted by the 130 kg of Binny) v 342.

I think the main difference is that the Boks still see the scrum as an important part of the game while we seem to be looking at it as a necessary evil and putting more emphasis on all round attributes. As far as front fives are concerned I think the Boks are definitely on the right track.
 

TRF_heineken

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I'm not one for conflict, and believe it's just as important to win with class than to lose with class....but I think this is one of those times....MAN UP AND ADMIT THAT THIS IS SOUR GRAPES.
That article about Guscott has been doing the rounds, not only on Wales online, but also other outlets. And to be honest, I'm perplexed by Guscott's remarks. Especially since he was full of praise of the SA team when he was a pundit in SA, and said that the bomb squad was used very well.

But to me, Guscott has a very short memory (probably the second shortest thing he has). As not long ago, a matchday squad consisted out of only 22 players, and not 23. And WR added an additional position on the bench, as every team must have an entire front row on the bench, to prevent things such as uncontested scrums from happening, and the props and the hookers are the guys that usually takes the most strain in a match because of the scrum.

So to me, this is a bit sour grapes. Guscott's narrow-minded approach isn't taking WR's approach to player safety into consideration at all. To limit it to 3 like in Soccer is just stupid, and the physicality of rugby should at no point be compared to soccer, which Guscott is indirectly saying.

The other thing is that this idea of him will increase the amount of injuries because players are pushed to exhaustion. And England would have been in bigger trouble as they went into the World Cup with 3 guys still nursing injuries. And then Depth would again become a topic.

I guess every pundit/ex-player/opinionated prick, whose team didn't win the Cup, will have an opinion as to how the game should be changed.

It happened in 2007, when we won, where everybody was writing about our boring style of play and the box-kicking of Fourie Du Preez and that we didn't play exciting rugby and that we are dull AF etc...

Then WR started chopping and changing rules/laws, introduced things like the ELV's and had different regions play under different rules, and look at ways to make the game more "exciting" as opposed to Springbok rugby.

12 years on, and we played exactly the same type of rugby as we did in 2007. Even with all the changes in rules/laws, yet, we played exciting rugby too, and is even on the top 5 list of most tries scored, points scored, defenders beaten and all those other stats involved with "attacking/running rugby".

Let them write their articles, let them bitch and moan and whinge and cry.

We have the cup. We won it fair and square. We played every game, regardless of the weather, opposition or whatever other excuse known to man.
 

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1. Guscotts opinion is wrong imo
2. To accuse England fans of sour grapes is ridiculous.
3. Most England fans admit the best team won.
4. Sensible England fans admit we exceeded expectations.

England aren't losing with a lack of class, you're looking for way to use an article from Wales Online (classy yeh) that indicates England Rugby team are showing a lack of class and sour grapes. I've never know some people to be so bitter about England, even in victory (or in Wales fans eyes, Englands defeat) that they have to accuse us of such random crap.

Now, turn the table. If we won, and we picked holes in every SA journalists odd opinion and then accused SA of saltiness, and a lack of class then England would soon be accused of arrogance. Winning without dignity etc etc.

Again. SA won because they were better. Nothing EITHER TEAM has done since then has shown arrogance, or a lack of class. But don't let the boredom get the better of you, and try not to let some opinions of pundits tarnish everyone.
 

ncurd

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That article about Guscott has been doing the rounds, not only on Wales online, but also other outlets.
Learn to read,

First off I can't find the original article Guscott wrote(https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/features/columnists/jeremy-guscott/). If an article quotes another article alway go get the original article. And this is the reason why

At no point in the entire Wales Online article do they quote Guscott as saying anything about SA or their so called Bomb Squad (first time I'm hearing this term). Sour grapes? Nope just Wales Online smearing an English pundit and you wanting in turn to smear English fans.
Look if you can find a bit where he targets SA I'll be happy to call it sour grapes. But otherwise your inferring information that isn't there and honestly compared to other members on the boards I'd expect better of you.
 

TRF_Olyy

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For all our claims to have 4 world class locks this is something we really need to think about.
Lawes is a tweener - not quite a lock not quite a 6. He's there because of his aggression in the tackle (...on smaller players just after they release the ball). He's never been much of a scrummager and everytime he's been subbed for Kruis there's been a marked uptick in our set piece.
Launch is better than Lawes as well. He wouldn't be in my 23 tbh.
 

TRF_heineken

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Look if you can find a bit where he targets SA I'll be happy to call it sour grapes. But otherwise your inferring information that isn't there and honestly compared to other members on the boards I'd expect better of you.
I know that assumption is the mother of all fukups. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that he is essentially targeting the SA plan of having the 6/2 split in the final and how our bench was tactically used to overpower the opposition.

Why would he write this specific of article just AFTER the final? Tactical substitutions has been part of the game a very long time. And he had ample opportunity to write this exact same article without people drawing conclusion they are doing now.

My response wasn't just about Guscott's column, but about most of the articles doing the rounds the past 2 weeks. Yes, there is a lot of praising going around, but as always there will be the guys that wants to bring the champions down or want to put an asterisk behind the victory or whatever.

I get what Guscott is saying, in that he wants the bench to revert back to the idea of being used only for injury replacement and not tactical replacement. But I can't see that happening with blood subs, HIA assessments etc. People will then start to manupilate the system in other ways, like faking a head injury. At least now, with the tactical subs being allowed, it's the most honest way to do it.

Of course Guscott isn't mentioning SA in his column, he's not that stupid. Especially since he was so generously hosted in SA for the entire WC. And sure his opinion isn't just about the bomb squad, and could be aimed at a variety of teams doing various tactical substitutions for different reasons. But his timing is just very suspect. So excuse me and the many others for thinking that there is a more sinister approach in what he is saying.
 

TRF_stormer2010

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Having watched the game again I feel even more than ever that the margin isn't as big as the scoreline implies. That scrum dominance early on.. Garces even went as far as penalizing the England scrum one time where it went down due to Kitshoff slipping and letting go of his bind. Garces has never been very good at blowing the scrum and probably by then the idea that we had an obvious better scrum had stuck in his head despite England coming back strong in that department post substitutions. Damage was done by then and England were chasing which is where our tries came from.

Thought on the day the early scrum woes, Youngs and Lawes were England's downfall. That and some of our poorer performers looked to make far less mistakes than in previous games. The scrum being the biggest factor IMO as it translated directly into actual points for us. TBH Eddie should have known better. All 4 SR sides use the scrum as a weapon. Especially the Stormers (and there are how many Stormers in that tight five! Mbonambi, Malherbe, Etzebeth, Kitshoff and Koch is an ex-Stormer). If teams get parity or the ref doesn't blow the scrum its a major arrow we lose. That is part of the reason we've done so poorly under Garces as he tends to blow the scrum in favor of the side in possession no matter what (that and his breakdown laisez faire approach). England just needed to not get so clearly and obviously pommeled early on. Even when they had the ascendancy later on the idea of SA scrum > England scrum was burnt into Garces' mind bar for that one scrum where England clearly and obviously had one over us.
 

BrokenWing

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So it's sour grapes from the English because a Welsh news outlet drew conclusions from an article from ONE English ex player?
 
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