[RWC2023] England vs Samoa (07/10/2023)

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

lol what benefit do we really get by announcing late. Like any team is going to practise anything else other than kick returns against England (other than waiting for the fitness of our constantly injured players).

I'd also question if Ford and Farrell together are our best tactical kicking option. A better option would be a left footed kicker at 13 (like Slade for example), meaning you can kick from either left or right on the field. When having your kickers at 10 and 12 you you don't have a whole field kicking option.

So really what we want is Daly at 13, Manu at 12 and either Ford or Farrell at 10.

 

[whocaresaboutthetruth]

lol what benefit do we really get by announcing late. Like any team is going to practise anything else other than kick returns against England (other than waiting for the fitness of our constantly injured players).

I'd also question if Ford and Farrell together are our best tactical kicking option. A better option would be a left footed kicker at 13 (like Slade for example), meaning you can kick from either left or right on the field. When having your kickers at 10 and 12 you you don't have a whole field kicking option.

So really what we want is Daly at 13, Manu at 12 and either Ford or Farrell at 10.

do you not think Samoa's tactics would change slightly if smith was at full back rather than steward?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

lol what benefit do we really get by announcing late.

We're not announcing it late though, we're announcing at the time everyone else does

 

[Mumbles119]

id probably say Farrell is the form 10 if we're going off the previous season.saracens winning the premiership with him at 10 would suggest he was the best 10 in the league.I thought last season he was probably saracens best player along with maybe earl.he certainly played ford off the park in the final.I know people will say he hasn't particularly performed for England but who has??Does this not mean he is the form 10?

Yep agreed. Farrell has definitely played some of his best the last year or so. There are others in the WC squad that for me shouldn't be there, e.g. Billy, May etc

I also feel that we have seen probably the least amount of players selected out of position in recent England teams for a while now.

So my post was purely a light hearted reaction to being an England fan other the last few years and selecting players out of position is just something that is normal for England.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yep agreed. Farrell has definitely played some of his best the last year or so. There are others in the WC squad that for me shouldn't be there, e.g. Billy, May etc

I also feel that we have seen probably the least amount of players selected out of position in recent England teams for a while now.

So my post was purely a light hearted reaction to being an England fan other the last few years and selecting players out of position is just something that is normal for England.

With the major caveat of FOR HIS CLUB. That's not been replicated in a white shirt.

I can just about live with the short term view of Ford or Faz (but guessing we'll see both in tandem soon enough……) for this tournament. But we're going to have to broaden our horizons and Smith's the longer term obvious option. Just find him some quick ball, a decent 9 and some outside backs who don't play by rote and he'll be fine…..

 

[whocaresaboutthetruth]

With the major caveat of FOR HIS CLUB. That's not been replicated in a white shirt.

I can just about live with the short term view of Ford or Faz (but guessing we'll see both in tandem soon enough……) for this tournament. But we're going to have to broaden our horizons and Smith's the longer term obvious option. Just find him some quick ball, a decent 9 and some outside backs who don't play by rote and he'll be fine…..

With the major caveat of FOR HIS CLUB. That's not been replicated in a white shirt.

I can just about live with the short term view of Ford or Faz (but guessing we'll see both in tandem soon enough……) for this tournament. But we're going to have to broaden our horizons and Smith's the longer term obvious option. Just find him some quick ball, a decent 9 and some outside backs who don't play by rote and he'll be fine…..

Are you saying smith can only produce if he has the right players around him?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Are you saying smith can only produce if he has the right players around him?

90% of the time yes - just like any other player he'll be a cog in the overall team pattern.

But 2 or 3 times per game he might try something more individual or daring that others wouldn't see or try and those around him need to be on his wavelength - like Dombrandt absolutely is at club level. Whether that be running smart support lines or anticipating a chip or whatever.

 

[whocaresaboutthetruth]

90% of the time yes - just like any other player he'll be a cog in the overall team pattern.

But 2 or 3 times per game he might try something more individual or daring that others wouldn't see or try and those around him need to be on his wavelength - like Dombrandt absolutely is at club level. Whether that be running smart support lines or anticipating a chip or whatever.

Are you not talking about club form there?.The same thing that you have just criticised Farrell for not being able to replicate at international level.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Are you not talking about club form there?.The same thing that you have just criticised Farrell for not being able to replicate at international level.

Fair challenge. But no.

I think Smith's speed of thought and vision is far superior, not just to Farrell but most of our players - that in itself has been part of the problem. That his Eng career to date has been mixed is partly the natural stutters of a young player getting to grips with a higher level, but more that he's been a round peg in a square hole playing in a team more used to the slow, dull kicking game that's never going to get the best out of him.

He's got something extra and is a player we could build a team around like Scotland, eventually, did with Russell.

 

[whocaresaboutthetruth]

Fair challenge. But no.

I think Smith's speed of thought and vision is far superior, not just to Farrell but most of our players - that in itself has been part of the problem. That his Eng career to date has been mixed is partly the natural stutters of a young player getting to grips with a higher level, but more that he's been a round peg in a square hole playing in a team more used to the slow, dull kicking game that's never going to get the best out of him.

He's got something extra and is a player we could build a team around like Scotland, eventually, did with Russell.

Fair challenge. But no.

I think Smith's speed of thought and vision is far superior, not just to Farrell but most of our players - that in itself has been part of the problem. That his Eng career to date has been mixed is partly the natural stutters of a young player getting to grips with a higher level, but more that he's been a round peg in a square hole playing in a team more used to the slow, dull kicking game that's never going to get the best out of him.

He's got something extra and is a player we could build a team around like Scotland, eventually, did with Russell.

I agree with some of your points but don't write off Farrell and ford because there's a perfect example in the Ireland team who are currently number 1 in the world with a 38 year old number 10

Fair challenge. But no.

I think Smith's speed of thought and vision is far superior, not just to Farrell but most of our players - that in itself has been part of the problem. That his Eng career to date has been mixed is partly the natural stutters of a young player getting to grips with a higher level, but more that he's been a round peg in a square hole playing in a team more used to the slow, dull kicking game that's never going to get the best out of him.

He's got something extra and is a player we could build a team around like Scotland, eventually, did with Russell.

i actually agree that smith is a wonderful player but the problem I have is it seems the suggestion is write Farrell and ford off and focus on smith.you use the example of Finn Russell but there's also a better example with the Ireland team with Johnny sexton.Despite being a 38 year old he is currently the number 10 in the number one team in the world.I remember him being not selected for the lions and everyone writing him off.To me the problem with England stems from the packs inability to dominate teams on a regular basis so until that's corrected it's always going to be difficult task for anyone playing in the England backs

 

[Grizwald]

I'll be surprised if we don't see Ford and Farrell at 10/12.

Outside of that it would make sense to go with whatever Borthwick thinks is his strongest 23. Earl has been far more effective at 8 than Vunipola, Earl, Curry, Lawes I'd like to see on the back row.

As a slight aside the scheduling has been a bit guff IMO.

 

[Scotty]

Announcing the team as late as possible is of benefit to England.If as you suspect England may go with ford and Farrell then surely giving Samoa the least amount of time to prepare for that scenario or at least keep them guessing on the England line up is a plus for England.Personally I think he will go ford/Farrell/manu and it's probably England's best option especially if they hopefully get to the semis.They will need to play in the oppositions half and play for territory for that game and two kickers/playmakers is probably the best option to do that.

Ford Faz Lawrence would be the best option for me if he is going Ford Faz, Lawrence is a good defender but also offers power and pace in the back line.

 

[Reiser99]

Ford and Faz for me depends entirely on the logic behind it.

If it's because it worked a few years ago then I don't like it.
If it's because Ford has played well and SB needs Farrell in as captain then I really don't like it.
If it's because they have actually trained well then I still don't like it, but I'll grudgingly accept there is a semi decent reason.

For me Faz and tbh the rest of the backline kick far too much. Ford and Faz for me just increase the amount of time the ball is in the air and simply that tactic hasn't worked. We need to actually run the ball more, especially in the opponents half and I don't see it happening with this combo.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

Ford and Faz for me depends entirely on the logic behind it.

If it's because it worked a few years ago then I don't like it.
If it's because Ford has played well and SB needs Farrell in as captain then I really don't like it.
If it's because they have actually trained well then I still don't like it, but I'll grudgingly accept there is a semi decent reason.

For me Faz and tbh the rest of the backline kick far too much. Ford and Faz for me just increase the amount of time the ball is in the air and simply that tactic hasn't worked. We need to actually run the ball more, especially in the opponents half and I don't see it happening with this combo.

Do you see it happening with any combo whilst Borthwick's in charge?

Doing that is a really good way of being dropped until we've a new head coach

 

[ncurd]

especially in the opponents 22 and I don't see it happening with this combo.

FTFY

 

[Reiser99]

Do you see it happening with any combo whilst Borthwick's in charge?

Doing that is a really good way of being dropped until we've a new head coach

No I don't just highlighting that I don't think Ford and Faz is the way forward.

 

[dirty harry]

If I could offer an alternative opinion on the 3 fly halves...

As a Welshman, and as someone who only really looked at the England team in depth once or twice a year, I can tell you the prevailing feeling amongst opposition fans is that we would much rather see Smith's name on the team sheet than the other 2, like by a country mile!

Less control, less direction and a massive target to hit in defence. Hes worth a break or half break per game, but his wild attempts never really damage tier 1 teams.

I would also say, I'd much prefer to face Ford than Farrell. We've probably been beaten by Ford more than by Farrel over the years, but it just seems more doable when Ford is in the box seat, like if his pack doesnt beat us up he isnt going to offer anything on top and will accept losing.

Farrell on the other hand, is mr passion, mr England, if his pack isnt doing the job he seems to have the ability to put the pack back in a situation to get the upper hand and say 'there you go, do it till you get it right'. He seems to lead and galvanise England more.

I get his limitations, but I generally think had he been nailed on as 10 for the last 5 years, instead of trying to force 2 good players into a team, hed be a world beater.

But look, that's just what we as opposition like to see.

 

[higgik]

With the major caveat of FOR HIS CLUB. That's not been replicated in a white shirt.

I can just about live with the short term view of Ford or Faz (but guessing we'll see both in tandem soon enough……) for this tournament. But we're going to have to broaden our horizons and Smith's the longer term obvious option. Just find him some quick ball, a decent 9 and some outside backs who don't play by rote and he'll be fine…..

That is true because he is far more comfortable in his club, being part of a group.
For England it looks like he is trying to be the lynchpin.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

He [Farrell] seems to lead and galvanise England more.

I think a lot of England fans would bigly beg to differ.

 

[West Country Wail]

If I could offer an alternative opinion on the 3 fly halves...

As a Welshman, and as someone who only really looked at the England team in depth once or twice a year, I can tell you the prevailing feeling amongst opposition fans is that we would much rather see Smith's name on the team sheet than the other 2, like by a country mile!

Less control, less direction and a massive target to hit in defence. Hes worth a break or half break per game, but his wild attempts never really damage tier 1 teams.

I would also say, I'd much prefer to face Ford than Farrell. We've probably been beaten by Ford more than by Farrel over the years, but it just seems more doable when Ford is in the box seat, like if his pack doesnt beat us up he isnt going to offer anything on top and will accept losing.

Farrell on the other hand, is mr passion, mr England, if his pack isnt doing the job he seems to have the ability to put the pack back in a situation to get the upper hand and say 'there you go, do it till you get it right'. He seems to lead and galvanise England more.

I get his limitations, but I generally think had he been nailed on as 10 for the last 5 years, instead of trying to force 2 good players into a team, hed be a world beater.

But look, that's just what we as opposition like to see.

Love this. Exactly how I see it.

Just one further; what do you think about Steward or Smith at full back?