SA S14 franchises

[stormer2010]

Bulls
On track and showed they can grind out a win against the Hurricanes. Should put them in a good frame of mind on tour. Should beat the Force comfortably and to cement a home berth for the play-offs only really need to beat one of the Reds, Blues, Chiefs. They have the personel sto pull it off; especially considering the Bokke won 2 of their 3 games in the Trinations last year on tour and the majority of those players are in this squad.

Stormers
I was relieved to have the Stormers win this one as the Cheetahs are a dangerous side and have a knack of upsetting the leading teams. They seem to get extra motivation against other SA sides; probably that Currie cup mentality kicking in. Stormers should enjoy the bye and having the Bulls soften the competition up for them (or is that motivating?). Looking forward to see how the guys travel. it seems like the team is in good nick and although de jongh is injured, Whitehead fitted in nicely while there is also Grant who cacn cover and Cronje probably going to travel after de Waal had an indifferent game. Lookiong forward to the return of some other guys as well but they should probably get eased in much like de Waal and play in the Vodacom cup first.

Cheetahs
Man, i feel for these guys; first Brussouw was a massive hit and now Mapoe, Viljoen and Sholtz. 3 of those are key figures at the Cheetahs. I thought they would have a better season and sofar have although I felt that in the game against the Highlanders they should have done better. Here's hoping the wheels don't come off. It shouldn't if they really want to be taken more seriously.

Sharks
At last a win but against relatively weak opposition and after the Highlanders had a hectic tour of SA. Not at all convincingly beaten as well. I expected the Sharks to fall to 8th or 9th on the log this year but didn't expect them to be contenders for the wooden spoon. Can they turn it around movingtowards the closing stages? I doubt it. Especially considering the form of opposition still to come. Just hope this bad form doesn't spill over to the Springboks. Jannie, Pienaar, Pietersen and Jacobs especially should not be considered. Get some locks.

Lions
Argh. Can they just roll over and die? I remember when the Lions were the premeier side in SA in the nineties. What a plummit. Relegate them to being a feeder team for the Cheetahs/Bulls/Sharks and bring in the Kings, i say.

 

[Boggle]

To be honest, that really wouldn't be fair to the Lions.

Yes they are absolutely the most horrible team I've ever seen in Super rugby, but remember when the bulls ended the super 12 in last place with 0 wins ?

they're 2 times champions now, swings and roundabouts, etc, etc.

although my fear is, theirs is a problem much deeper than what the bulls had all those years ago.

 

[Steve-o]

You have a chronic hate for the Sharks don't you? Don't get on the high horse just yet, Stormers have not won anything yet.

 

[Bull]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Mar 23 2010, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

You have a chronic hate for the Sharks don't you? Don't get on the high horse just yet, Stormers have not won anything yet.[/b]

When last have the Stormers/WP won anything?  :lol:

 

[stormer2010]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bull @ Mar 23 2010, 12:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Mar 23 2010, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have a chronic hate for the Sharks don't you? Don't get on the high horse just yet, Stormers have not won anything yet.[/b]

When last have the Stormers/WP won anything?  :lol:
[/b][/quote]

The Cheetahs. Last Saturday. Maybe my dislike for the Sharks does show a bit but you can't tell me any of the players mentioned are in the top 2 of their position in the country.

 

[Bull]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stormer2010 @ Mar 23 2010, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bull @ Mar 23 2010, 12:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Mar 23 2010, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have a chronic hate for the Sharks don't you? Don't get on the high horse just yet, Stormers have not won anything yet.[/b]

When last have the Stormers/WP won anything?  :lol:
[/b][/quote]

The Cheetahs. Last Saturday. Maybe my dislike for the Sharks does show a bit but you can't tell me any of the players mentioned are in the top 2 of their position in the country.
[/b][/quote]
Anything, meaning any cup/tournament.  B)

 

[Steve-o]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stormer2010 @ Mar 23 2010, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bull @ Mar 23 2010, 12:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Mar 23 2010, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have a chronic hate for the Sharks don't you? Don't get on the high horse just yet, Stormers have not won anything yet.[/b]

When last have the Stormers/WP won anything?  :lol:
[/b][/quote]

The Cheetahs. Last Saturday. Maybe my dislike for the Sharks does show a bit but you can't tell me any of the players mentioned are in the top 2 of their position in the country.
[/b][/quote]

I'd say Jacobs and Pietersen are classy players. Jacobs played crap last year because PdV kept picking him after he injured his shoulder in the S14, even after the Sharks didn't use him. He was the best Bok back of 2008 though.
And Pietersen, yeah he has his critics, but he is probably one of the most reliable players to put the Bok jersey on in 5 years. His defense is awesome as well. He is the best right wing in the country. Who else would you have on the right wing? And don't even think of dropping van der Heever's name in this discussion. He has much to prove to say the least.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bull @ Mar 23 2010, 03:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Anything, meaning any cup/tournament.  B)[/b]

Exactly

 

[Bull]

Well on current form I won't pick Jacobs or Pietersen. Both of these players defense is suspect especially Jacobs, plus he is slow. Pietersen has never convinced me under the high ball and he sometimes does some stupid stuff.

 

[Nickdnz]

Put Nokwe in the springbok jersey and keep him there, I don't care which wing...He's awsome.

 

[stormer2010]

Yes, WP hasn't won anything for an age but what has that got to do with the Sharks playing badly? Can't I criticise Sharks players (who are also Springboks incidentally and thus come under my sphere of interest) who I feel are either overrated or way of form because the team I support hasn't been playing too well for the last decade? Basta! I shall keep on kicking calling for the heads of overrated Sharks players and for them to be replaced by up and coming Cheetahs and Stormers players.

Jacobs, class? Pick him on his form of 2 years back when we have other option and a RWC to build towards? Nah. Olivier and Fourie are the premier wingers in SA. Back-up can be anyone of de Villiers or Steyn. de Jongh, Ebersohn or so could get a look in for development of the younger guys. Jacobs is off form and old. Pietersen is overrated. How many tries has he scored where there was some work to do still recently? The Ndungane brothers are also solid enough but way too slow. I'd play Joe Pietersen at 14. Otherwise Mapoe when fit again or even Nokwe ahead of Pietersen for me. Nokwe has been working hard on his short-comings and deserves a go IMO.

-

What the hell is this I hear about Fourie du Preez touring with the Bulls while injured? Surely as a key Bok and with the provincial coaches 'agreeing in principle' to rest key players they could have given himm a 4 week rest period. I mean, they have Hougaard and Adams to cover and both are class provincial players. Look at the Stormers, LOL, Pietersen isn't traveling with the Stormers while carrying the same seriousness of injury as du Preez IMO and he isn't a Bok nevermind a key Bok. Hope he gets some rest on the tour, even if only the first two games. Bulls should be fine without him. Not too sure about the Stormers though; Blaauw out injured and now our lack of depth at prop starts becoming an issue while Pietersen out means we have no recognised goal kicker.. and that while we play a game based on tight defense... Hope Grant can find the target as de Waal didn't impress against the Cheetahs. All I know is that our bye has come at a good time.

That said, go Cheetahs, Bulls, Sharks and Lions!

 

[Jer1cho]

I don't think it's like the old days anymore though, where players had to prove themselves and all. Our rugby boys a groomed from school boy level, and usually immediately take the step up. Gerhard van den Heever is seriously impressing me at the moment, and i honestly don't think he would find it difficult taking to international rugby. Players are getting younger and younger. How good was that 19 year old Lambie guy for the Sharks? That was the best 15 showing i have seen since Andre Joubert! Francois Steyn won a World Cup at 19. Awesome seeing this kind of talent coming through.

 

[stormer2010]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Mar 24 2010, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I don't think it's like the old days anymore though, where players had to prove themselves and all. Our rugby boys a groomed from school boy level, and usually immediately take the step up. Gerhard van den Heever is seriously impressing me at the moment, and i honestly don't think he would find it difficult taking to international rugby. Players are getting younger and younger. How good was that 19 year old Lambie guy for the Sharks? That was the best 15 showing i have seen since Andre Joubert! Francois Steyn won a World Cup at 19. Awesome seeing this kind of talent coming through.[/b]

I have to agree. Brussouw and Steyn also showed that making taking the risk on the form player rather than keep picking the sick and dead probably will be for the better. After Brussouw showed up for the Boks Burger started playing again. Competition is good. Wing in particular is a spot where an inexperienced player can be given a chance. Lambie was really impressive. Hopefully he gets more gametime and keeps it up; we can do with a good fullback. Things are looking good for SA with some young players showing great potential. The ones that I would like to more of:

Flip van der Merwe
Dewald Duvenhage
Lionel Mapoe
Gerhard van der Heever
Patrick Lambie

Others that have been playing at a high level for a while now:

Francois Louw
Deon Stegman

I'm sure I've missed loads of promising players. These guys have forced the big names to pick up their game and its good to see guys like Juan Smith, Schalk Burger, Andries Bekker etc getting back to form or in Bekker's case starting to deliver on his promise.

 

[stormer2010]

I'd like to see an A vs B side match like the Aussies used to do. We probably don't have the time with all the games lined up for this year but my teams would be:

Tendai Mtawarira vs Guthro Steenkamp
Bismark du Plessis vs John Smit (or Tiaan Liebenberg)
BJ Botha vs WP Nel
Bakkies Botha vs Flip van der Merwe (Danie Rossouw)
Victor Matfield vs Andries Bekker
Schalk Burger vs Heinrich Brussouw (Francois Louw / Deon Stegman)
Juan Smith vs Dewald Potgieter (Duane Vermeulen / Jean Deysel / Frans Viljoen)
Pierre Spies vs Ryan Kankowski
Fourie du Preez vs Ruan Pienaar (Vermaak / Duvenhage / Pretorius)
Morne Steyn vs ?
Brian Habana vs Jongi Nokwe
Wynand Olivier vs Jean de Villiers
Jacque Fourie vs Juan de Jongh
Lionel Mapoe vs Gerhard van der Heever (Joe Pietersen)
Francois Steyn vs Patrick Lambie (Riaan Viljoen)

 

[Steve-o]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Mar 24 2010, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Gerhard van den Heever is seriously impressing me at the moment, and i honestly don't think he would find it difficult taking to international rugby.[/b]

NO NO NO.... NOOOOOOOOO!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bull @ Mar 24 2010, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Well on current form I won't pick Jacobs or Pietersen. Both of these players defense is suspect especially Jacobs, plus he is slow. Pietersen has never convinced me under the high ball and he sometimes does some stupid stuff.[/b]

Pietersen's defense suspect? If you are talking about Joe Pietersen, then yes, otherwise I have no idea where you get that from. Also JP Pietersen is brilliant under the high ball, and often regains his own up-and-unders, so again no clue what you talking about.

Plus I never said that I'd pick both as starting Boks (I would pick JPP though), stormer2010 suggested they're not the top 2 in their positions. I suggested otherwise.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stormer2010 @ Mar 24 2010, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Yes, WP hasn't won anything for an age but what has that got to do with the Sharks playing badly? Can't I criticise Sharks players (who are also Springboks incidentally and thus come under my sphere of interest) who I feel are either overrated or way of form because the team I support hasn't been playing too well for the last decade? Basta! I shall keep on kicking calling for the heads of overrated Sharks players and for them to be replaced by up and coming Cheetahs and Stormers players.[/b]

You're putting words in my mouth.
I'm just warning you not to get to ahead of yourself with the hype you putting on WP and it's players, they haven't proven anything yet. You guys still have to tour Australasia. And actually make the knock-out rounds.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Jacobs, class? Pick him on his form of 2 years back when we have other option and a RWC to build towards? Nah. Olivier and Fourie are the premier wingers in SA. Back-up can be anyone of de Villiers or Steyn. de Jongh, Ebersohn or so could get a look in for development of the younger guys. Jacobs is off form and old. Pietersen is overrated. How many tries has he scored where there was some work to do still recently? The Ndungane brothers are also solid enough but way too slow. I'd play Joe Pietersen at 14. Otherwise Mapoe when fit again or even Nokwe ahead of Pietersen for me. Nokwe has been working hard on his short-comings and deserves a go IMO.[/b]

Premier wingers? Don't you mean centres? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there, although you not giving me much to work with!

Olivier plays inside centre, so is irrelevant to the debate. So are De Villiers and Steyn. YES, Fourie definitely the best 13 in SA, without a doubt, have never suggested otherwise in the history of posting on TRF. However Jacobs is definitely number 2 in the pecking order. Who else you gonna put there?

De Jongh and Ebersohn? Are you mad?! Ebersohn got his 1st S14 start just the other weekend and this is de Jongh's first season in the S14. Adding to that Ebersohn has been playing Sevens for 2 years and de Jongh is playing out of position. SLOW DOWN. We've done this in SA too many times. Throwing youngsters in the deep end too early, and losing confidence in them just as quick. You don't groom youngsters in the Bok jersey. The S14 is an adequate indicator of talent, let them prove themselves there first.

So you'd play Joe Pietersen at 14... On what grounds? When and where has he proven to be the best 14 in SA? Mapoe is in his first season of S14 rugby as well and Nokwe avoids more tackles than Earl Rose does. Although I like Nokwe, his just not complete enough.





Look I actually think our backline chooses itself... All except for 15 that is:
9) Du Preez
10) M.Steyn
11) Habana
12) Olivier
13) Fourie
14) JP Pietersen
15) ???

Our (Bok) problem is our frontrow. IMO Beast and Smit is not good enough to wear the number 1 & 3 jersey respectively. Beast has to work on his abdominal strength as he tries to scrum with his legs too much, if you know what I mean. Would be a GREAT impact player though. Smit just isn't a tighthead.
This is where our overhauling of the Bok team needs to take place, the rest is sorted pretty much.

 

[Dexter Tauvao]

Yeah nah, the Beast, Smit du Plessis combo worked last year. But this year, they are getting munched even in Super 14.
Smit, I've never liked him at prop, but Bismarck du Plessis is probably the top hooker in S.A now. Smit, I'd keep at 2 anyway because the Boks just dont seem to play right without him. I'd say perhaps Beast stays in number 1, and bring in the doctor for number 3? Deon Carstens maybe? What I really think would be good, is perhaps try Wian du Preez, John Smit, WP Nel combination? I havent watched much of either props, but I heard Wian du Preez is potentially the best prop in S.A, and after WP Nel's game for the Barbarians, he could even steal Tendai's ***le of beast? Then again, I've only really watched one match of either man, so I can't be too sure.

The backline seems fine for now. But yeah, apart from fullback.
BRING BACK PERCY!! haahah.. I'd say look at Janties again? (Joe Pietersen is a great attcker, but does look a little shaky on dfence.)

The one man I think could lead the backline in 2011?

STEFAN TERBLANCHE. He's got pace, all the experience in the world, he is probably the safest under a ihgh ball in the whole competition, and he can hack the ball at least 50, 60 metres. He is the fullbakc for 2011. Pietersen (WP) and Kirchner need at least one more season of S14.

Centre problems arent bad, and will be excellent for next year with de Villiers and Steyn. I just hope de Villiers goes back for WP. Put de Jongh back in his wing, and he'd sure put up a great fight against Habana, and Pietersen (Natal) perhaps de Jongh needs a season like Pietersen (WP) and Kirchner.
I am afraid the Stormers could fall in a semi. But if it is in Newlands, you can expect a final from them. I just hope the final isn't at Loftus, or AMI Stadium.

The Sharks, well we can only hope. They need to spark something now. Theyve still the Canes and Bulls to play. MUST win both. Even if the Bulls are at Loftus.

*Stormer2010

Love how there is no one to match Morné Steyn in the A-B battle.

And whats with Jaco van der Westhuizen? One of my favourtie players of all time, but I havent watched much of him this season. Is he any good this year? Could he be in the boks next year?


Jano Vermaak. quailty halfback. but yeah, I can't decide between him and Pienaar. If Pienaar moves back to 9 for the Sharks and STAYS there, perhaps Pienaar could get his spot. But if Pienaar stays at no 10 (now that Goode is a little injured) I think Vermaak must be the one to the number 20 jersey.

I'd love to see some of the oldies run for the boks again, Terblanche, Van der Westhuizen, Bolla Conradie.
Would be a nice experience bonus, but it could take time away from the likes of Pietersen (Stormers) and de Jongh??

Locks are set til next year.
Brussow is a huge lost for the Cheetahs and the Boks. He is still nicely covered by Juan Smith. But François Louw is looking good for Smiths jersey. Guess we can only wait to see what Peter de Villier's pulls out of his hat for 2010.

GO THE BOKS!

 

[Bull]

 <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Mar 24 2010, 08:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bull @ Mar 24 2010, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well on current form I won't pick Jacobs or Pietersen. Both of these players defense is suspect especially Jacobs, plus he is slow. Pietersen has never convinced me under the high ball and he sometimes does some stupid stuff.[/b]

Pietersen's defense suspect? If you are talking about Joe Pietersen, then yes, otherwise I have no idea where you get that from. Also JP Pietersen is brilliant under the high ball, and often regains his own up-and-unders, so again no clue what you talking about.

Look I actually think our backline chooses itself... All except for 15 that is:
9) Du Preez
10) M.Steyn
11) Habana
12) Olivier
13) Fourie
14) JP Pietersen
15) ???
[/b][/quote]

I'm referring to JP Pietersen and his current form, Joe Pietersen is playing very well and he would be my current 15. I don't ever pick players on past form or past experience.

9) Du Preez
10) M.Steyn
11) Habana
12) Olivier
13) Fourie
14) Van den Heever/Mapoe/Nokwe
15) Joe Pietersen

 

[Jer1cho]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bull @ Mar 25 2010, 07:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

9) Du Preez
10) M.Steyn
11) Habana
12) Olivier
13) Fourie
14) Van den Heever/Mapoe/Nokwe
15) Joe Pietersen[/b]

I can't see Joe Pietersen as a Springbok. He looks like a Currie Cup hero to me. He also looks like Percy Montgomerie's younger brother. Freaky resemblance actually. We need Francois Steyn. I have said for years that he is a MUST at 15, then when he finally plays like a demon for us at 15 he buggers off. Typical.

Terreblanche is too old. Kirchner is kicks EVERYTHING, and take that Stormers jersey of the Cape Tonian Pietersen and i bet he will wet his pants. For now, i am hoping this Lambie character impresses week in week out. We could always put Kankowski at 15. He He.

Also, Steve-O, why the hate against Van den Heever? He is playing well, has good pace, and most importantly, does what a winger is supposed to do. HE SCORES TRIES! As much as i like an on form JP Peterson, he seems uninterested this season...

 

[stormer2010]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Mar 25 2010, 08:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bull @ Mar 25 2010, 07:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

9) Du Preez
10) M.Steyn
11) Habana
12) Olivier
13) Fourie
14) Van den Heever/Mapoe/Nokwe
15) Joe Pietersen[/b]

I can't see Joe Pietersen as a Springbok. He looks like a Currie Cup hero to me. He also looks like Percy Montgomerie's younger brother. Freaky resemblance actually. We need Francois Steyn. I have said for years that he is a MUST at 15, then when he finally plays like a demon for us at 15 he buggers off. Typical.

Terreblanche is too old. Kirchner is kicks EVERYTHING, and take that Stormers jersey of the Cape Tonian Pietersen and i bet he will wet his pants. For now, i am hoping this Lambie character impresses week in week out. We could always put Kankowski at 15. He He.

Also, Steve-O, why the hate against Van den Heever? He is playing well, has good pace, and most importantly, does what a winger is supposed to do. HE SCORES TRIES! As much as i like an on form JP Peterson, he seems uninterested this season...
[/b][/quote]

I'm with on that except that I'd move Pietersen to the bench and bring in Steyn from France. So glad he lost some weight over there; was looking a bit sluggish towards the end and losing weight was the only way to go much like Naqelevuki now looking up for a bit of rugby now he's lighter.

Fourie du Preez
Morne Steyn
Brian Habana
Wynand Olivier
Jacque Fourie
Gerhard van der Heever (Lionel Mapoe when fit again and on form)
Frans Steyn

Dewald Duvenhage
F*cked if I know (Sharks should keep up their habit of trying players out of position and give Lambie a go at 10. Who knows.)
Joe Pietersen

As for the forwards:

Guthro Steenkamp
John Smit
WP Nel
Flip van der Merwe/Danie Rossouw (Bakkies Botha when back to his best)
Andries Bekker
Shalck Burger
Juan Smith
Pierre Spies

BJ Botha (Mtawarira if he can shape up)
Bismark du Plessis
Victor Matfield (Yes, I believe Bekker is the form lock at the mo. With Bekker deciding to join the tight 5 maybe he can play alongside Matfield even while the Baas is gone)
Francois Louw (Heinrich Brussouw if fit and on form)

If you want out and out scrummagers then probably van der Merwe should get a look in and Gary Botha at hooker. Actually a lot of quality forwards aren't ever going to see a Springbok jersey. If only we had that depth at flyhalf and fullback..

-

Anyway thats all irrelevant and the Bokke won't be picked for months yet. I am looking forward to this week even though the Stormers have the bye: Cheetahs, Sharks and Lions are the underdogs but all three of them should fancy their chances. Ought to be close matches. I have been way out WRT to the Lions, though; thought they would have done better (at least lost by smaller margins) and would have fancied them against the Highlanders and Force at the start of the season..
Bulls should blow the Force out of the water. A win without a bonus point would be mission failed IMO.

 

[Steve-o]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Mar 25 2010, 08:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Also, Steve-O, why the hate against Van den Heever? He is playing well, has good pace, and most importantly, does what a winger is supposed to do. HE SCORES TRIES! As much as i like an on form JP Peterson, he seems uninterested this season...[/b]

Well ATM the Bulls are a juggernaut, he simply hasn't been tested enough to be considered for the Boks. Period.
He only has 9 S14 caps in total, most of them from the bench. I actually like van der Heever, that's why I don't want him thrusted into the international scene yet.

Remember what happened to Jantjes? 21 Year old, had a good CC, played 1 season of Super Rugby, got thrown into the Bok team and BAM!!! Was lost in rugby wilderness for 4 years. Even a prodigy kid like Frans Steyn can't escape the wrath of fickle Bok fans.
Van der Heever is still young, give him more time.

 

[stormer2010]

Great to have the Sharks beat the 'Canes. Ate some of my words with a smile on my face; Hurricanes down is one less contender for a play-off spot. Still tight up at the top with Stormers, Crusaders and any of the three top Aussie teams leading the hunt for 3 of the open spots. Bulls can probably be penned in allready.