Scarlets fear playing with just 14 men in Europe

[TRF_Cymro]

Nigel Davies fears his Scarlets could be forced to play just 14 players in their final European pool games if they suffer another tight-head injury.

The Llanelli region are without three of their front-line tight-head props and have called in academy prop Simon Gardiner into their Heineken Cup squad.

Only one player can be added to the European squad during the pool stages.

The Scarlets are in talks with European Rugby Cup, the Cup organisers, for dispensation to bring in two players.

"We are in negotiation with the ERC as this is a unique set of circumstances," Davies told BBC Sport.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/llanelli_scarlets/9256761.stm​

 

[dullonien]

I'm sure they'll be allowed special circymstances here and bring in two tightheads, they should be anyway! Very unfortunate to loose two tightheads due to fractured arms in one game, espeically when another is out with a fractured leg! Luckily Simon Gardiner is a promising young player, but it's a big step up. I think they'll go for Phil John on the tighthead with Gardiner on the bench.

Can't see them being allowed to start with 14 players! However if another tighthead does get injured, is there really anyone of enough quality to step in?

 

[Teh Mite]

There's every chance they will make them start with 14 men. When you consider the new laws that state if you run out of props during a game through injury you're not allowed to replace them with loose forwards and have uncontested scrums, it wouldn't surprise me if this isn't seen as an extension on that theme.

Especially when you remember the fiasco that Ospreys and Tigers had last year regarding unregistered players.

 

[dullonien]

How exactly can you have contested scrums without a tighthead on the field? If they don't allow the Scarlets to bring in another tighthead in the event of another injury, then they will have to have another looshead on the bench and play with uncontested scrums if something happens to the starting looshead. In what way would penalising them to play with 14 men be fair, it's not as if the players broke their bones on purpose?

The rules are there for a reason, and they're normally perfectly acceptable, but sometimes they need to be reviewed in special circymstances such as this one. Hopefully they won't get any more injuries and all will be fine, but the Scarlets have to plan for the worse case scenario.

 

[Teh Mite]

That's the point: You force uncontested scrums by not having enough fit props, you forfit having the player on the pitch completely.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Ye but its not a problem thats occurring gametime. Scarlets have given notice to the the European Authorities that this is going to be a problem. To lose 3 tightheads is hard, I find it tough to see any other sides that has more than 4 out and out tightheads registered on their books. To be honest they should be allowed to register another tight head and I can't see the problems it will cause.

 

[dullonien]

That's the point: You force uncontested scrums by not having enough fit props, you forfit having the player on the pitch completely.

How do you come to that conclusion. You can't fill your european squad with loads of front row players incase lots get injured. In every other positon on the pitch bar front row anyone can cover. If it came to it, a scrum half can cover wing etc. In what way is it the Scarets fault that two props got injured in one game? The Scarlets want to bring in a qualified player so that things don't resort to uncontested scrums, surely that's what's best for everyone including the fans?

 

[Teh Mite]

Well maybe, but without the ruling it allows teams like Wasps and Newport to resume their tactics of going to uncontested scrums whenever they're under the cosh without penalty. Sometimes it makes life difficult as in this instance, but them be the rules which everyone else is getting by despite.

I expect that ERC will make an allowance with a points penalty for Scarlets.

 

[dullonien]

Yeh, no problems with the rules in almost every other situation. Why a points penalty though? They've done nothing wrong. Penalising a team for nothing other than bad luck would be appalling. They're already going to be struggling having to deal with their 3 leading tightheads out injured, and their scrum now probably struggling to compete.

 

[coonor]

Can someone tell me what the actual rules are on uncontested scrums?

 

[Conal]

and could someone expalin why there is diffrent magners and hcup squads?

 

[Teh Mite]

(ii) a club may nominate a maximum of 23 players and a minimum of 19 players for each match. Included amongst such players must be a minimum of six players who can play in front row forward positions and who are suitably trained and experienced. The club must be able to replace each front row position on the first occasion of an injury to those positions. If unconstested scrums are ordered as a result of their being no suitably trained and experienced front row replacement available, the player whose departure cused the unconstested scrums may not be replaced, ie: the team will be required to play with 14 players.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/heinekencup/rules/index.php

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Can someone tell me what the actual rules are on uncontested scrums?

Whoever feeds the scrum wins the ball as there is no pushing allowed and the opposition hooker cannot strike for the ball.

This is what the IRB Dentition is, which can be found on page 9 of the IRB Laws Booklet

Uncontested scrum: An uncontested scrum is the same as a normal scrum, except that the teams do not compete for the ball; the team throwing in the ball must win it, and neither team is allowed to push.

 

[dullonien]

and could someone expalin why there is diffrent magners and hcup squads?

I'm not entirely sure either. What difference does it make? Or is to simple even the playing field a little, so that teams with massive squads don't benefit my being able to rotate players all the time?

Edit. Still don't understand why another player can't be brought in to replace an injured player.

 

[Teh Mite]

Because you have a set squad size for the HEC, thus to stop the sides with massive squads gaining the advantage in the first place.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Yet they dont have a fully fit front row, I highly doubt that the Scarlets wont be allowed to register another tight head prop to ensure that they are covered. Im sure if it was the Saints and not the Scarlets a different tune would be sung!

 

[Teh Mite]

I'd be more ****** off actually that the club didn't have the foresight to make allowances/cursing bad luck actually.

I know the rules and understand the frustration, but don't accuse me of that.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I can't see why Scarlets should be punished for something out of their control.
No one can predict losing two props in one match,
They should be able to swap one (or two) of the injured players out for non-injured and leave it at that

 

[dullonien]

Impossible for a club to make allowances to loosing three tightheads from their HC squad (Was Rhys Thomas in the original HC squad?) They also need to make sure they've got cover for other positions.

I can't see why injuries are being punished really. It's part or rugby, but you should be allowed to bring in cover, and it's the only competiton I know of that you aren't. Even at international level squad sizes aren't usually capped and even when they are in the WC, you're not dissallowed to bring in cover for injured players.

 

[Teh Mite]

2. Eligibility of Players

(i) each club shall nominate a squad of up to 38 players. A minimum of 10 of the players nominated by the club must be capable of playing in front row forward positions. All players must, from 16 September 2010, be fully and properly registered with their club and Union and available to play for the club from that date.

That's scope for 4 looseheads, 4 tightheads and 2 hookers. Plus 1 replacement at a later date if needed. What more do you want them to do?