Scotland vs New Zealand - 13/11/2022

[retired9]

Only good thing about 99 was beating England at Wembley.

That was all that we asked of you lol

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

One wonders if Scotland could do with a new voice in the camp to get that extra 5% killer instinct out of them. I'm not saying Toonie is needing to go, he ain't perfect but the blanket calls for his resignation are short sighted. under GT we have got a few monkeys off our back, the AB's were one of the remaining big ones but Twickenham, Wales and Paris are all under his command and should not be discounted.

Is Sir Fergie free in January/Feb for a wee bit of teeth sharpening?

I would doubt Vern Cotter has made any other team of his hunt rabbits. Regardless of the rights and wrongs he did it for a reason and that reason is as apparent now as it was then.

Scotland just mentally went down the toilet the closer the final whistle came, it's their habit. Yeah, TJ improved things but he wasn't responsible for Scotland being unable to get many line breaks in the second half.

 

[retired9]

I would doubt Vern Cotter has made any other team of his hunt rabbits. Regardless of the rights and wrongs he did it for a reason and that reason is as apparent now as it was then.

Scotland just mentally went down the toilet the closer the final whistle came, it's their habit. Yeah, TJ improved things but he wasn't responsible for Scotland being unable to get many line breaks in the second half.

It's this habit I would like them to get to the bottom of. Once in a blue moon like Twickenham is not enough, yes we need a bit of a fair wind at time but there is talent in the squad that should bear some results more often than we get

 

[Kiwiwomble]

thoughts that came to be after watching the replay

DH, he was pumping his legs on attack.....then threw that intercept...and just trotted back, there was no urgency to try and make up for his mistake, he gave up the second he saw it go to hand, poor

Dalton was great, everywhere

at about half time i was thinking Savea had been present but not everywhere like he has been most of the season....and then he was EVERYWHERE in the second half

Perofeta came on and his kick for touch was the best all game, tight angle and carved off 50m, it use to be just our open play kicking that was rough but kicks for tough from BB were either not out or about 20m

I thought akira was very quiet but saw some say he was doing good work so will accept i just missed it

Tela - someone picked on form, did really well, ALB - someone picked on reputation or past form...looked rough...food for thought

We dont have the luxury to develop two starting 12's, back to basics, jordie starts at 12 and whoever we decide is his back up does so from the bench, one game in, one game out does nothing but disrupt things

Are we afraid of possession? no confidence we can keep it? why do we kick it away so much? i was always taught winner always want the ball, sayings like "earn the right to go wide" became saying for a reason, build some phases, draw in more defenders, create the mismatches...then try the fancy stuff

There was a play late in the game where we kicked up upfield and the scottish wing took it on the chest, it went about 5m backwards...and he got pinged for a knock on, that was harsh

we were lucky, the scottish yellow was harsh, personally it looked accidental so just a knock on but would have understood a penalty...but yellow? we want players to wrap arms but then give them yellow cards if they wrap too wide?

We did not play as well as we could...but scotland tried and often succeed in playing some really good rugby and that was cool to watch

 

[Jimbo]

Now I hope the selectors will see the light; Christie is not a test level halfback, TJ is. Plus, the number of games tj has come on, calmed, energised, and inspired his fellow teammates to win a tight one is ridiculous.

Poor game from BB.

, pretty good Scottish team.

All European teams can pass and catch the ball these days, usually better than the all blacks too. The times have changed.

I would go a little easy on BB he was poor by his owned standard but honestly massively hampered by the 9, truely terrible, TJ was always going to come on and change the dynamic the longer the game went on the bigger the contrast, ABs playing 2 thirds of the game at a pretty slow attacking pace then the pace TJ brought was always going to be a big askfor hay defence to repel, I don't think tactically it's how I would do it but I do wonder if it was always to some extent part of the game plan.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I would go a little easy on BB he was poor by his owned standard but honestly massively hampered by the 9, truely terrible, TJ was always going to come on and change the dynamic the longer the game went on the bigger the contrast, ABs playing 2 thirds of the game at a pretty slow attacking pace then the pace TJ brought was always going to be a big askfor hay defence to repel, I don't think tactically it's how I would do it but I do wonder if it was always to some extent part of the game plan.

outside NZ is the only place BB still seems to have the world beating reputation...he has some serious gaps in his game...a 10 that struggles with kicking from hand....both open play and for touch

 

[Umaga's Witness]

I don't care who Scotland was playing, to not put a visitor away who is playing that badly is pretty embarrassing. I don't even count that as a glorious Scottish failure, just massive underperformance from minute 30-80 against a side that will be lucky to reach a RWC semi. I'll take the moral victory by having made Scotland favourites for this back in June as it's clear the 23 players they have available combined with their coaching staff were favourites on the day if they had executed. They'll never face a Foster ABs again and I think they'll never beat the ABs in my lifetime.

The ABs did well enough with TJ on the park to control the match. Funny how some scrumhalves just transform the play of the pack like that.

Praise be for Italy yesterday or I'd be having an attack of the grumps. There is no way NZ should be 3-0 in their last three games under Foster - Wales and Scotland completely blew their chance at history and blew the chance of the ABs having a coach capable of winning the RWC next year.



In fairness he played like a true Scotsman in a big match at Murrayfield. No wonder the ABs are favouring 33 year old Aaron Smith.

I think you have vastly overestimated wales. Wales were terrible against the boks; they beat, marginally, the springboks b team and we're close in the first test due to an incredibly poor first half performance by the boks, and the boks weren't even that good in the final test which they won easily .

The all blacks against Ireland were a lot better than wales against springboks

And scotland is better than wales.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I think you have vastly overestimated wales. Wales were terrible against the boks; they beat, marginally, the springboks b team and we're close in the first test due to an incredibly poor first half performance by the boks, and the boks weren't even that good in the final test which they won easily .

The all blacks against Ireland were a lot better than wales against springboks

And scotland is better than wales.

It's hard to argue against this so I won't. What I would say, though, is that as **** as Wales are I don't see England or Scotland being much better than them at present. In fact you could throw a blanket over all of them in terms of how far apart they are from each other.

That, however, will not be reflected in the results we saw against NZ. Scotland made a good game of it and I wouldn't be surprised if England got a result against you but this is largely down to us having a metal block as far as the ABs are concerned whereas the others don't. Other factors at play for sure, though. Oh, and we have the Pivac handicap.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I think you have vastly overestimated wales. Wales were terrible against the boks; they beat, marginally, the springboks b team and we're close in the first test due to an incredibly poor first half performance by the boks, and the boks weren't even that good in the final test which they won easily .

The all blacks against Ireland were a lot better than wales against springboks

And scotland is better than wales.

Are Japan better than Wales then seeing as they almost beat the ABs?

Different perspectives, I think Wales did very well on the SA tour and I'm not convinced Scotland would have won one match and almost won a second.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Are Japan better than Wales then seeing as they almost beat the ABs?

Different perspectives, I think Wales did very well on the SA tour and I'm not convinced Scotland would have won one match and almost won a second.

How can you think wales did well on the springbok tour though? Surely you aren't denying that the springboks had an absolute mare of a first half in the first game? And let's not forget the opportunist tries from wales. And surely you must discount the second game against the springboks b team?

I think wales and Japan are similar. Worth noting it wasn't exactly the top team of the all blacks that played Japan. Also worth noting that a lot of tier 1 teams are inconsistent, and that Japan pushed France earlier this year but noone is claiming that means france is crap.

It also comes down to how a given teams style might work against another's, and that's a more important factor in why it was always obvious that wales were going to get smashed by the all blacks but scotland might have a chance. And also wales is more suited to beating the springboks than scotland is, even though overall I think scotland is better than wales.

Prior to this weekend the all blacks had scored more tries this year than any other international team with 50, with Ireland being next with 35. The reason the all blacks have struggled is their defence and discipline. But man on man, scrambling, and on the line defence has been excellent. Their problem has been How easily they let the opposition into their 22 because of
their poor defensive structures, not being able to reorganize quickly when the opposition is getting quick ball, and being unable to combat complex attacks,
the opportunites they give opposition with fast rush defence through errors in attack,
and the territory they offer up through illdiscipline especially penalties given away from Not securing the ruck

Wales defence isn't as challenging as scotlands. It makes it easy for the all blacks to secure their rucks (especially in tight) and doesn't force as many errors. For the most part, Wales attack is easier to defend against for a team with basic defence but who are good man on man. You saw when they did run a move the all blacks had no chance. Wales aren't good at getting quick ball either.

So I never had even the slightest worry, at any time this year, that wales could beat the all blacks. Did worry about scotland, and a little about Japan (but that more comes down to Japans style being more likely to challenge the all blacks than Japan being better than wales)

 

[Umaga's Witness]

It's hard to argue against this so I won't. What I would say, though, is that as **** as Wales are I don't see England or Scotland being much better than them at present. In fact you could throw a blanket over all of them in terms of how far apart they are from each other.

That, however, will not be reflected in the results we saw against NZ. Scotland made a good game of it and I wouldn't be surprised if England got a result against you but this is largely down to us having a metal block as far as the ABs are concerned whereas the others don't. Other factors at play for sure, though. Oh, and we have the Pivac handicap.

I think it's more what teams are suited to beating what other teams.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I think it's more what teams are suited to beating what other teams.

Yeah I completely agree. I was saying the other day, I'm not so worried about playing SA in a WC semi final as we're better suited against teams like SA and Argentina that are not known for their attacking prowess and instead look to get into an arm wrestle. I do, however, worry about teams with well functioning attacks who secure quick ball like Ireland, NZ, France, Australia etc etc.

Which is why it was such a shame that Pivac didn't have the balls to follow through on his own vision for us and just made us an inferior Gatland team that had none of his strengths and all, and more, if it's weaknesses.

We appoint Robinson and we'd beat you by 30 points within a year.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

How can you think wales did well on the springbok tour though? Surely you aren't denying that the springboks had an absolute mare of a first half in the first game? And let's not forget the opportunist tries from wales. And surely you must discount the second game against the springboks b team?

I think wales and Japan are similar. Worth noting it wasn't exactly the top team of the all blacks that played Japan. Also worth noting that a lot of tier 1 teams are inconsistent, and that Japan pushed France earlier this year but noone is claiming that means france is crap.

It also comes down to how a given teams style might work against another's, and that's a more important factor in why it was always obvious that wales were going to get smashed by the all blacks but scotland might have a chance. And also wales is more suited to beating the springboks than scotland is, even though overall I think scotland is better than wales.

Prior to this weekend the all blacks had scored more tries this year than any other international team with 50, with Ireland being next with 35. The reason the all blacks have struggled is their defence and discipline. But man on man, scrambling, and on the line defence has been excellent. Their problem has been How easily they let the opposition into their 22 because of
their poor defensive structures, not being able to reorganize quickly when the opposition is getting quick ball, and being unable to combat complex attacks,
the opportunites they give opposition with fast rush defence through errors in attack,
and the territory they offer up through illdiscipline especially penalties given away from Not securing the ruck

Wales defence isn't as challenging as scotlands. It makes it easy for the all blacks to secure their rucks (especially in tight) and doesn't force as many errors. For the most part, Wales attack is easier to defend against for a team with basic defence but who are good man on man. You saw when they did run a move the all blacks had no chance. Wales aren't good at getting quick ball either.

So I never had even the slightest worry, at any time this year, that wales could beat the all blacks. Did worry about scotland, and a little about Japan (but that more comes down to Japans style being more likely to challenge the all blacks than Japan being better than wales)

If you think the Wales side fielded against NZ was anything other than horrifically sub-optimum (35 year old at fly half FFS0 and that having two close contests in the World Champs backyard isnt representative of a team that could beat a Foster led NZ then I can only say we are far apart in our interpretation of events. Similarly if you think the victorious Pumas defence or even the Scottish defence is significantly stronger than the Welsh I'm left scratching my head.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

If you think the Wales side fielded against NZ was anything other than horrifically sub-optimum (35 year old at fly half FFS0 and that having two close contests in the World Champs backyard isnt representative of a team that could beat a Foster led NZ then I can only say we are far apart in our interpretation of events. Similarly if you think the victorious Pumas defence or even the Scottish defence is significantly stronger than the Welsh I'm left scratching my head.

Well I never said the team they fielded was not suboptimum. But yes I think we would have smashed them even if they had their top team.

Note that you are applying double standards here. You are claiming that wales close win over a springbok b team means they could beat the all blacks but that the all blacks smashing an under strength wales team is irrelevant.

And yes I Think it is clear from watching games that wales defence in The short channels is inferior to scotlands and Argentinas. Did the all blacks not just pick and go all day with no problem against wales but struggle to make ground trying to do so against Argentina and scotland?