Scottish independence referendum

[Draggs]

Quite an interesting topic, and the vote is in just over two weeks. Any thoughts or talking points?
Please keep it serious, I will remove anything O/T.

 

[LittleGuy]

After having put up with Quebec referendum chatter for most of my life, whatever way it goes I hope the issue is either settled or put on the back burner for a very long time after the referendum.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Don't think they will, don't think they should.


If they do, then it should be considered treason and we should invade.

 

[Draggs]

Scotland have the subs and jets, so might make it difficult.
This is an issue, with the Vanguard subs in Faslane and all. Scotland have been vocal in their opposition to the keeping of the Tridents within their borders. Decision on the replacement of the Vanguards is expected after 2015 election, so they don't have to make a commitment, only for the rug to be pulled from underneath if Scotland choose to leave.

Faslane has been tipped as the base for the Scottish navy if needed. They would also use the Eurofighter Typhoon, which has a large British contribution. If they so desired, BAE could attempt to make spare parts difficult to obtain, although for them, business is business I'd say.

 

[canadafan]

After having put up with Quebec referendum chatter for most of my life, whatever way it goes I hope the issue is either settled or put on the back burner for a very long time after the referendum.

Isn't the Quebec one on the backburner now? I taught a bunch of French Canadians this past month, and none of them seemed to give a **** about independence.

 

[LittleGuy]

Isn't the Quebec one on the backburner now? I taught a bunch of French Canadians this past month, and none of them seemed to give a **** about independence.

Yeah I would agree with that, but point still stands that it was around for most of my life and sucked time and energy that would have been spent improving Canada otherwise for twenty to thirty years. The collapse of the Bloc Quebecois has helped(and to a lesser extent the Parti Quebecois provincially). I think Quebec Independence is down to it's sort of core 30-35% support in Quebec which would NEVER want to stay in Canada, even some of them probably wouldn't list as their top priority either.

 

[Feicarsinn]

I think they'll lose with about 40% or so. Then the UK will have it's referendum on whether or not they want to leave the EU in a couple of years, and if that goes badly I'd imagine the Scots would leave the union to stay in the EU.

 

[TRF_Peat]

Unless the polls change radically, Scotland will stay, for the simple reason that the SNP have failed to publicly make the economics stand up. If Scots thought that leaving would make them richer, they'd do so tomorrow. There is an argument for it happening, but the SNP haven't made it well, instead retreating to "We're right and you're wrong" as a debating point with amusing regularity. They've failed to make a coherent case over currency, they've been caught with their pants down over the EU and they've mostly failed to win any business support.

I have to say, part of me will be sad when it's gone. It has been keeping me entertained at work for the past year. It's also been rage inducing and depressing; I don't think of the participants have covered themselves in glory. The SNP and friends have been content to debate it entirely on emotion, the Better Together campaign to play on uncertainty. There's been nothing bold or striving about either campaign.

Scotland have the subs and jets, so might make it difficult.
This is an issue, with the Vanguard subs in Faslane and all. Scotland have been vocal in their opposition to the keeping of the Tridents within their borders. Decision on the replacement of the Vanguards is expected after 2015 election, so they don't have to make a commitment, only for the rug to be pulled from underneath if Scotland choose to leave.

They have already announced plans and funding for the expansion of Faslane; it seems very clear that Westminster are anticipating being able to keep subs there. The SNP might be furiously opposed to such a motion but it is one of the biggest bargaining chips available to an independent Scotland and besides, there's no guarantee that the SNP would be returning to the negotiations.

Faslane has been tipped as the base for the Scottish navy if needed. They would also use the Eurofighter Typhoon, which has a large British contribution. If they so desired, BAE could attempt to make spare parts difficult to obtain, although for them, business is business I'd say.

In the unlikely circumstances of such a war, I believe that the Golden Share that the British Government holds in BAE would allow them to simply order the company to immediately stop any and all provision of materiel to Scotland. Obviously, such a thing would not happen, but do not mistake BAE for a fully independent company.

It should also be noted that the division of mobile military assets such as the Typhoon is up for debate. What share they're entitled to, how much they would barter away for other considerations and so on would all have to be settled.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Scotland have the subs and jets, so might make it difficult.
This is an issue, with the Vanguard subs in Faslane and all. Scotland have been vocal in their opposition to the keeping of the Tridents within their borders. Decision on the replacement of the Vanguards is expected after 2015 election, so they don't have to make a commitment, only for the rug to be pulled from underneath if Scotland choose to leave.

Faslane has been tipped as the base for the Scottish navy if needed. They would also use the Eurofighter Typhoon, which has a large British contribution. If they so desired, BAE could attempt to make spare parts difficult to obtain, although for them, business is business I'd say.

Scotland has nothing.
The British Army, the Royal Airforce, the Royal Navy - they have the equipment. The moment they leave the UK they're not entitled to our military anymore. They can take their highland regiments if they want (though even that would be sketchy considering the contracts they've signed/oaths they've sworn for the Queen/country), but that's, what, 1% of our manpower?

 

[ratsapprentice]

My experience of the British military would suggest that it's quite a considerable chunk of manpower.

 

[TRF_Peat]

Olyy, are you actually being serious here?

Interesting point re British soldiers going to form part of the Scottish army - if you signed up to be a soldier, why would you join a tiny territorial defence force that'll be doing nothing for the next gods knows years? The British army as is offers a far superior career path.

p.s. Faslane is probably on the wrong side of Scotland to make any sense as a naval base, strategically speaking.

 

[Big Ewis]

Yeah I would agree with that, but point still stands that it was around for most of my life and sucked time and energy that would have been spent improving Canada otherwise for twenty to thirty years. The collapse of the Bloc Quebecois has helped(and to a lesser extent the Parti Quebecois provincially). I think Quebec Independence is down to it's sort of core 30-35% support in Quebec which would NEVER want to stay in Canada, even some of them probably wouldn't list as their top priority either.

yeah I usually agree with the rest of Canada on this issue, but I mean, everybody sort of knows the facts: Québec is considerably different from the rest of Canada and does have its own exclusive culture that is clear-cut and distinct, but at the same time it doesn't seem feasible to separate from an economic standpoint, or at least certainly not anymore these days, and if ever, it should've happened long ago. So should they separate: no. Simple as that...

But the separatist thing, it's everywhere...you hear the Britons here who want their own country (Bretagne/Britanny, the West Atlantic coast of France) and you can understand them as they do have their own culture, temperament, customs...etc...even their own climate/specific outdoors (looks like Ireland). They're even ethnically different as they are for the most part still very much Celtic. I have a friend who looks E-X-A-C-T-L-Y like Jamie Roberts lol. And they used to be their own country but then France centralized as they always do for more influence and beat them into submission, nothing too violent but still you get the picture, and forced the disappearance of their language to establish French (because language is of course the great unifying conciliator overtime). Plus, they're our most productive region in terms of agriculture/farmwork and produce tons, are very hard-working ppl...
but it does still break my balls every once in a while when you see the virulence they adopt as they go on public demonstrations or their singers are constantly yappin' about how their culture was raped and how they're oh so Breton at heart and yadi yada...it's a broken record, we've heard it so many millions of times, we get it...but just accept the facts at some point, like, move on. You're French now, ya know, that's just how it is...

There's far worse though here. Of course this being a Rugby forum ppl will at least have an idea about the region: the Basque country. It spreads over Spain and France alike, and yes it's that same Pays Basque that contains Biarritz and Bayonne. Where the Bretons are a little annoying but peaceful, those guys are hot-blooded and aggressive as fk. It's downright hostility from these guys. Then there's Corsica, the island, and they're just simply terrorists so...

About Scotland, I don't know. I've spoken to Scots who of course thought it as best to separate, and others who say they really feel "British" and call it folly to even think of doing it and call it unrealistic. They are clearly different culturally, and as long as they keep that difference they exist as Scotland. They get to be represented on the biggest stage as their own entity, one easy example being Scottish Rugby. And they benefit from being inside the UK economic zone. Politically, I'm sure they've got lots of restrictions and relatively little freedom to operate as they deem right...yeah I guess they should stay.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Olyy, are you actually being serious here?

Interesting point re British soldiers going to form part of the Scottish army - if you signed up to be a soldier, why would you join a tiny territorial defence force that'll be doing nothing for the next gods knows years? The British army as is offers a far superior career path.

p.s. Faslane is probably on the wrong side of Scotland to make any sense as a naval base, strategically speaking.

Yep.

Faslane is deliberately out of the way - it's not ideal for anything other than a nuke arsenal.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Olyy, are you actually being serious here?

Interesting point re British soldiers going to form part of the Scottish army - if you signed up to be a soldier, why would you join a tiny territorial defence force that'll be doing nothing for the next gods knows years? The British army as is offers a far superior career path.

p.s. Faslane is probably on the wrong side of Scotland to make any sense as a naval base, strategically speaking.

Not really.
I do think that if Scotland does become independent they shouldn't get anything from us, though (i.e. currency).

Also the military thing is a bit of a cluster**** because when you sign up for the military you sign a legal contract for however long, and you swear an oath to the UK (and it's territories) and the Queen/royal family.
If Scotland suddenly becomes independent, the Scottish members of the British Military are still part of the British Military, it doesn't just suddenly switch to being a part of a new Scottish military.

 

[TRF_Peat]

Not really.
I do think that if Scotland does become independent they shouldn't get anything from us, though (i.e. currency).

Also the military thing is a bit of a cluster**** because when you sign up for the military you sign a legal contract for however long, and you swear an oath to the UK (and it's territories) and the Queen/royal family.
If Scotland suddenly becomes independent, the Scottish members of the British Military are still part of the British Military, it doesn't just suddenly switch to being a part of a new Scottish military.

Good lords, man, that's easily doable. It's not like we don't have plenty of historical precedents for handing over military units to seceding states and freeing people from oaths of allegiance; it's not like the oath to the Queen and her heirs is incompatible with a Scottish military anyway.

And Scotland are both responsible and entitled to a share of the United Kingdom's assets. That's a legal fact and wishing it away will do nothing. Be careful about doing so, as a share of national debt is one of those things. Currency isn't though.

 

[Tigs Man]

If Scotland votes yes then will we see:

Braveheart on Scootish TV

&

Trainspotting on English TV.

TBH I don't think Scotland will I also don't think the number of voters will be high imo,

Could the Shetland Islands call for a referendum on they part, as I believe they culture is just as much Norwegian than it is Scotland?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Shetlanders certainly sound more Nordic than Scottish.
And I would guess are more genetically similar to parts of England than the rest of Scotland.
But you know... if we actually all devolved along the cultural boundaries that existed a millenia ago Great Britain would probably consist of 20 separate states.

 

[TRF_nickdnz]

Not really.
I do think that if Scotland does become independent they shouldn't get anything from us, though (i.e. currency).

Also the military thing is a bit of a cluster**** because when you sign up for the military you sign a legal contract for however long, and you swear an oath to the UK (and it's territories) and the Queen/royal family.
If Scotland suddenly becomes independent, the Scottish members of the British Military are still part of the British Military, it doesn't just suddenly switch to being a part of a new Scottish military.

I was under the impression Scotland would likely remain part of the commonwealth?

 

[LittleGuy]

yeah I usually agree with the rest of Canada on this issue, but I mean, everybody sort of knows the facts: Québec is considerably different from the rest of Canada and does have its own exclusive culture that is clear-cut and distinct, but at the same time it doesn't seem feasible to separate from an economic standpoint, or at least certainly not anymore these days, and if ever, it should've happened long ago. So should they separate: no. Simple as that....

Yeah 1995 was there big chance but they very narrowly voted to stay, in 1980 they got about 40% I think which is probably about the same the Scottish indepence movement will get unless as Peat aptly pointed out there is some sort of big shift in opinion over the next few weeks.

I wouldn't expect a Quebec referendum for a very long time, I won't say never as that's just silly but it would take some sort of spark at this point.

 

[TRF_Peat]

I would rebuild both Hadrian's and the Antonine Wall. Those Picks are a crafty bunch.

Bunch of tools more like.