Scrum halves and scrums

Discussion in 'General Rugby Union' started by Mike Rolls, Nov 26, 2016.

  1. Mike Rolls

    Mike Rolls Senior Member

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    Have I missed a change in the laws? Time and again recently I have seen scrum halves pick the ball out of a scrum when it is still clearly in front of the foremost feet |(usually the number eight, of course). It gives him a fraction of a second's advantage over his opposite number who has to wait to see what is happening.
    Also, time and again, one sees teh scrum have who didn't put the ball in, give the player who did a generous push to send him way back behind the ball, giving the pusher a potential advantage if the heeling side, not realising their scrum halve is staggering around, heel the ball out quickly.
    Mike
     
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  3. Hairy Scot

    Hairy Scot Member

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    It appears that there are a number of laws about scrums which are now no longer enforced.
    When was the last time you saw a ball put in straight?
     
  4. FNS

    FNS Senior Member

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    I realy dislike the "play it" i dont want to play it i want to force a panalty or a try scrum ffs. At tis rate scrum will be forfeited for a tap or something like that.
     
  5. Mike Rolls

    Mike Rolls Senior Member

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    Probably about 1872!!
    Mike

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh, and I see that I typed 'foremost feet' - whoops! Meant 'rearmost feet', of course.
    Mike
     
  6. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

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    Good! I expect the team that wins the scrum to have that advantage as a reward for winning the scrum!
    This has been happening for at least 40 years!

    And really, think about what you are asking for. Do you want to hamstring the scrum half of the team that won the ball at the scrum so that you can create another scrap for the ball just behind the scrum that will inevitably lead to another scrum?

    Personally, I would like to see the non-ball winning scrumhalf be not allowed to advance beyond the centreline of the scrum the way they used to do it in Under 19s.

    - - - Updated - - -

    1. The scrum is not supposed to be a means of generating/winning penalties, it is supposed to be a way to restart the game; it even states that in the Laws of the Game.

    2. If you don't want a call of "use-it" to be made, you have to keep your scrum moving forwards; if your scrum is not good enough to do that, then you have to play it. I think that is perfectly fair

    3. Most of use want to watch a game of rugby. If you want to watch scrummaging contest, go watch scrum practice at training.
     
  7. Dunhookin

    Dunhookin Member

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    Yep kind of agree with your first point Cooky - but the team 'winning' the scrum has done nothing to win it - the ball has been put straight in the 2nd row. Agree 100% with your 2nd point - no brainer.

    That the scrum should not be a penalty fest - absolutely right - and IMO the laws of the game as written do our scrum an injustice. It is much more than a way to re-start the game, it is a technical and physical contest, it is a platform to attack, it is a means of exerting dominance and control of a match and it should be a source of fast ball to attack with. Agree on your use it point - perfectly fair.

    And point 3 - actually we do want to see a scrummaging contest - a fair one - one where the laws of the game are correctly applied - because this type of scrum produces fast ball - and it's game on.
     
  8. Cruz_del_Sur

    Cruz_del_Sur Senior Member

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    The other day i heard a radical idea: someone at the pub proposed to me the ref throws the ball into the scrums.
    if you seriously want straight balls into scrums, there you have it.
     
  9. FNS

    FNS Senior Member

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    Shame but penalties are there. So its valid strategy and fair.
     
  10. Dunhookin

    Dunhookin Member

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    There are many negative consequences of scrum dysfunction - a problem readily rectified if WR had the guts and moral fibre to take the initiative. Pressure from rugby enthusiasts to keep the problem topical and expose those at WR who responsible for the whole scrum debacle will help.

    The idea of referee's putting the ball in - sounds faintly ridiculous but meritorious at the same time. It would certainly bring the spotlight on the disease of bent feeding. I referee occasionally and have told SHs with poor listening ability that if they fail to put the ball in straight - I would demonstrate for them exactly what a straight put in looks like...! Get's their attention
     
  11. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    The problem will be easily ratified when they get referee who actually have played prop. At the moment all the referees are skinny backline players who has no idea what goes on in the scrum or what to look for.
     
  12. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

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    Believe it or not that actually happened in an international match, France v Wales , February 17, 1920 at Stade Colombes, the Times of London reported:

    "Eventually, the referee [Col. WSD Craven, England], who had been moderate and, at the same time, stern, in his decisions, had, on one occasion, to put the ball in himself."
     
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  13. The_Blindside

    The_Blindside Senior Member

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    I remember reading that Brian Moore did a talk to the leading refs (including Wayne Barnes, Steve Walsh and Joubert) before the current scrum engagement sequence was introduced, and got them to actually play in a front row so he could show them what it was like to be in a front row. Not sure it did a great deal going by the mess of scrums in 2016.

    http://en.espn.co.uk/the-rugby-championship-2013/rugby/story/193755.html
     
  14. Bruno_ARG

    Bruno_ARG Member

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    The problem with that is that there wouldn't be an advantage from one team over the other. It's like it's the same if I knock the ball on than someone from the other team does. That could cause deliberate knock on's from the attacking team in case they consider they have better chances of scoring through a scrum than with the ball in hand. I don't know if what I'm saying makes a lot of sense...
     
  15. Mike Rolls

    Mike Rolls Senior Member

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    >>Good! I expect the team that wins the scrum to have that advantage as a reward for winning the scrum!
    This has been happening for at least 40 years!<<
    Last time I looked it was still an offence to handle the ball in a scrum, just as it is in a ruck.
    Mike
     
  16. Cruz_del_Sur

    Cruz_del_Sur Senior Member

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    Yes there would. You still get to pick the side that favours your hooker. That is not small.

    I do agree that the advantage goes from say winning 8/9 out of 10 when you throw in vs 6 out of ten. The advantage would go down a lot, agreed, but i do not have a problem with that.
     
  17. Hairy Scot

    Hairy Scot Member

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    Not much has changed in the game since this thread was last updated.
    The crooked feeds continue unpunished.
    This renders the specialist roles of Hooker and Props redundant. We'll soon be seeing teams where the forwards are all centres instead of lumbering giants and scrums consigned to history.


    Hang on a sec, that's Rugby League.
     
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  18. Beau Geste

    Beau Geste Member

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    Agree with Hairy Scot about League. I was brought up on the game and hardly ever watch it now. The so-called scrums are an absolute farce. One of the main reporters on the game in Australia way back when coined it the 13 backs game and it's got worse since then (10 yards at the play the ball; 6 tackles). I hope Union does not morph into uncontested scrums, but the degree of crooked feeds bothers me.
     
  19. Amiga500

    Amiga500 Senior Member

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    Its hard to see an easy fix bar having the referee put the ball in. Unfortunately it gives him/her another job to do at maybe the toughest part of the game.
    Maybe better if the 4th official reintroduces the ball - which means you can have an official both sides of the scrum to watch for binding and hinging penalties.


    Its not as if other sport don't do similar - hurling and gaelic over here have the referee reintroduce the ball to the field of play. In soccer, the referee can drop the ball, ice hockey has the face-off - again, referee reintroduces the ball and I'm sure there are others.
     
  20. Brandon_Marr

    Brandon_Marr Junior Member

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    The new rule is now you can put the ball directly under the props feet. so now if you putting it at an angle from the middle its the same thing as putting it straight and under the props feet
     
  21. Nubiwan

    Nubiwan Senior Member

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    I came here today to post about certain parts of the game are killing it off for me as a spectacle, and stumbled on this thread.

    My major complaint in the last few years has been this no touching a scrum half who has his hands on the ball at the base of a ruck. What the ****? Sometimes a 9 can be seen surveying the park up in front, hands on the ball, and literally slowing the game down (stopping play) for 10 seconds at a time. Oh, guess what? He's probably gonna box kick it - again, and later - again oh yeah... a box kick. Surprise, surprise! Why slow the game to a halt in order for this obvious re-occurrence. If the 9 has the ball in his hands, then he should be open season. Not protected so he can look like some pansy NFL quarterback, who usually runs like a girl, when asked. The box kick is many international team's go to tactic in the northern hemisphere (where I happen to be from), and it rather just shows the lack of self confidence, ball in hand skill, and or running guile these teams possess.

    Scums! What the **** is going on? A mate of mine, who schooled with rugby, but played very little, but knows enough to know the rules, pointed this out to me the other day. In a 6N international match (the highest level), it took 3 mins and 45 seconds for play to be restarted from a scrum. In an international. I am reading on here how scrums are meant to be a quick way to restart the contest. It's a fecking joke. It appears to be the last thing on the agenda in most games. Rather a way for many players to get a bit of puff back in their lungs. Refs too often call a collapse against the wrong player. As it sits today..... It's always fed into the scrum. Players now stand 5 metres deeper in the backs, yet scrums still take an eon, and are constantly being reset. The whole bind, engage, set thing is absolutely ludicrous. Make the mark, and let both teams hit up for FFS. The current engagement method is simply another way of glorifying the officials involvement, and they are best kept out of the process as much as possible imho.

    Calling not straight line outs might also settle a few irate followers tensions. Being consistent about how players engage the ruck from the side, from off their feet, and generally stand offside at rucks are among other small nuances refs constantly overlook throughout a match, yet, if a try is scored, a TMO will suddenly point them out, as if it's the first time it was missed in the entire match, and call it back.

    My whole point of this is that I presently watch rugby because I can no longer play the sport. I watch to be entertained. See some open play, hard hitting up, good recycle, tactical kicking too. That in many arenas, particularly in the northern hemisphere, the game simply bores me. Recent 6N games I took in where nothing short of dull, and full of basic errors. Too many stoppages in play that do nothing more than highlight how overburden the game is in law, and how well the ref knows them all. If not, then TMO can google it. Very little in terms of teams attempting to open up, and games being bogged down in the manner the laws are now applied.

    Everyone on this forum will likely have an idea of what I am talking about, and whether you agree or not, is not my point. For the neutral observer, the game is already difficult to follow. Too many laws that are applied at times, and not at others. Too much inconsistency abounds.

    My final beef on union in many matches I watch has been that, too often, a pretty obvious officiating error occurs at a critical juncture in a match, which rather swings fortune to one side, and drastically affects the outcome. Now, not much you can do about officiating error, but considering how much impact TMO has on play today, it shouldn't be a complaint.

    In the end, I often find myself preferring to watch a rugby league match at club level. It is simpler to follow, has fewer long stops which are deemed part of the action in union, its generally more exciting, and players look more skilled at times. Give me State of Origin over any recent 6N game I took in any day. People go about the ridiculous league scrums, which they are, but they do what they are intended to do. Restart the game with minimum fuss.

    Union is becoming boring in the north. My only reservation is that I still watch super rugby where there is much more expression, and a willingness to keep the ball moving, and the game flying. I am from the north, and really will not be arsed if The All Blacks win the World Cup for the sake of keeping the game positive.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2019
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