Seeding disaster for the hosts

[bonxie23]

I’m sure we’ve been here many many times before but I do feel that it needs to be continually pointed out so that this fiasco doesn’t happen again.
As I type, the top five teams in the world are in the same half of the draw. This means the only two of South Africa, New Zealand, Ireland and France (and Scotland) will make it to the semi finals. This is a joke. It means that for these teams the semi should be one of their easiest games.
To compound matters teams are given double rankings points for World Cup matches, so the teams in the other half of the draw have a huge advantage going into the next draw, IF it continues to be so soon after this World Cup.
It is going to be very hard for the hosts to get out of the quarters. I know to win the World Cup you need to beat the best but this is ridiculous.
I have heard a lot of talk this week on how Gregor Townsend will be judged on Scotland’s performance in the World Cup. Is that really fair?
England and wales need to take full advantage of this golden hand they’ve been dealt.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

the seedings are based on world rankings when the pools were created....its hard to argue with the logic

 

[Which Tyler]

the seedings are based on world rankings when the pools were created....its hard to argue with the logic

This, it's just a question of when it's done - with all the logistical issues that surround it (and sponsorship).
I just can't see a way of leaving it less than 24 months pre-tournament.
Then it's a matter of what time of year you want to draw the pools and seedings, post 6N? post July series? post QN? or post November series?

 

[Le Frére Alpha]

Covid has made this one look even worse, its based on rankings as at 1 January 2020.

I think it has to be done at the end of a year so every team has played their full season. End of 2022 whilst probably being the fairest reflection possible, is admittedly tight for time. End of 2021 is a bit far out but better than having it mid season imo, although that still has France as second seeds. The traditional spot is the equivalent to the end of 2020 this cycle which is lunacy.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

This, it's just a question of when it's done - with all the logistical issues that surround it (and sponsorship).
I just can't see a way of leaving it less than 24 months pre-tournament.
Then it's a matter of what time of year you want to draw the pools and seedings, post 6N? post July series? post QN? or post November series?

unless they want to make the pools completely random and only announce them at the start of the tournament so teams have to be prepared for all comers

 

[Which Tyler]

unless they want to make the pools completely random and only announce them at the start of the tournament so teams have to be prepared for all comers

Way to kill ticket sales, and any tournament in a big country

 

[General Melchett]

It's utter madness and World Rugby are entirely responsible. Yes it's not Japan's fault that they played less games due to COVID but it's not the European teams fault that Japan couldn't play more games. I personally think World Rugby did them a massive favour by locking in the seedings while they were 8th seed knowing full well they were going to drop out of the top 8. Maybe a farewell sweetener as the last host.

The draw for the Qatar football world cup was made 7 months before the tournament kicked off and so I don't accept that it needs to be made as early as it was because of logistics and sponsorship.

 

[bonxie23]

Having a draw three years before the event is the main problem here. Please can someone reassure me that this is not going to happen again.

And yes, if football can do it in seven months, why can’t rugby? I’d even accept a year in advance.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Way to kill ticket sales, and any tournament in a big country

i wasn't actually advocating for it...but you think it would have that big an effect? if i was booking a trip to follow the AB's its not going to matter who theyre playing, like wise if i was living in a host city i would get a venue ticket regardless of who was playing, as i did in 2011 in chch (before the earthquake ruined things)

 

[Saintjay]

Or sack off the rankings and do an FA cup style draw. 8 balls for top 8. Then all into a pot and draw into four groups the year before. Certainly more interesting and you could make a big deal of it.

It's not like being no1 in the rankings years before a world cup does that team a favour.

 

[Which Tyler]

i wasn't actually advocating for it...but you think it would have that big an effect? if i was booking a trip to follow the AB's its not going to matter who theyre playing, like wise if i was living in a host city i would get a venue ticket regardless of who was playing, as i did in 2011 in chch (before the earthquake ruined things)

Who they're playing, no - but where they're playing - absolutely.
You'd need things like travel and accommodation to be sorted.



Rugby isn't football, it simply doesn't have the same draw. It can't just rock up and demand that everyone rearranged themselves around it with minimal notice.
These things are arranged more than a year out, so realistically, if it needs to be at the end of the year, then 22 months out is about as close as it can be managed.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

@Which Tyler i see what you mean, especially with large countries, slightly less of a deal with say the UK with loads of large stadiums only a train ride away from each other, impossible for aussie or the US

 

[Saintjay]

Host cities and infrastructure is always well in advance. The majority of the venues for Australia 27 sorted. USA 2031 has 28 cities interested to be whittled down to possible 24.

There is talk of the US tournament increasing in size and possibly being in the summer due to the NFL schedule and NFL stadiums being the main bidders.

Both countries clearly know well in advance, have the infrastructure and experience at hosting major events. I really can't see why the draw can't be done 18 - 24 months out. Everything else is in place. Most tickets sales would be local and like with the Lions quite a few away traveling fan tickets sold as packages.

 

[bonxie23]

This, it's just a question of when it's done - with all the logistical issues that surround it (and sponsorship).
I just can't see a way of leaving it less than 24 months pre-tournament.
Then it's a matter of what time of year you want to draw the pools and seedings, post 6N? post July series? post QN? or post November series?

Who they're playing, no - but where they're playing - absolutely.
You'd need things like travel and accommodation to be sorted.



Rugby isn't football, it simply doesn't have the same draw. It can't just rock up and demand that everyone rearranged themselves around it with minimal notice.
These things are arranged more than a year out, so realistically, if it needs to be at the end of the year, then 22 months out is about as close as it can be managed.

If the World Cup is being planned for the spectators and particularly the tour operators, then I accept that. That’s capitalism. So if we accept that the World Cup is not primarily about the rugby then can we ditch the double ranking points for each game? It really is a double whammy for the weaker countries in the wrong half of the draw.

 

[Which Tyler]

I think the double ranking points are to provide a boost for lower ranking teams, who only really get (or got) their full squads together for RWC matches (think Argentina or PIs going back a couple of cycles), or further down, proper coaching (think Uruguay, Kenya etc getting WR appointed coaches for the year leading up to the RWC).

I'd say that rationale is a bit more antiquated now anyway (largely, thanks to the profitability of the RWC), and would be happy enough to ditch it anyway.

 

[bonxie23]

If

I think the double ranking points are to provide a boost for lower ranking teams, who only really get (or got) their full squads together for RWC matches (think Argentina or PIs going back a couple of cycles), or further down, proper coaching (think Uruguay, Kenya etc getting WR appointed coaches for the year leading up to the RWC).

I'd say that rationale is a bit more antiquated now anyway (largely, thanks to the profitability of the RWC), and would be happy enough to ditch it anyway

As I say it’s totally unfair. Let’s take Fiji (14th) and Tonga (15th).
Fiji have to play Australia (7th), Wales (8th) Georgia (13th) and Portugal (18th).
Tonga on the other hand have Ireland (1st), South Africa (4th) Scotland (5th) and Romania (20th).
That is such an unfair imbalance which will only be perpetuated by the double point rule.

 

[General Melchett]

I think the double ranking points are to provide a boost for lower ranking teams, who only really get (or got) their full squads together for RWC matches (think Argentina or PIs going back a couple of cycles), or further down, proper coaching (think Uruguay, Kenya etc getting WR appointed coaches for the year leading up to the RWC).

I'd say that rationale is a bit more antiquated now anyway (largely, thanks to the profitability of the RWC), and would be happy enough to ditch it anyway.

The double points are providing a massive boost to the likes of Wales and Australia who despite being in relatively poor form (both lost to Italy recently) are shoe-ins for the QFs given their easy group. That means they'll be in a great position to be in the top 8 when World Rugby lock in the seedings for the 2027 RWC.

I agree the double points should be scrapped but I doubt it'll happen given the RWC is World Rugby's baby.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I've not really complained about this in past RWCs, so lets hope it's just a blip. But yes, the seedings are so awful due to being premature due to Covid followed by a poor 'luck of the draw'.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

i do find this whole argument a strange hill to die on, especially as an a first topic on the board, any draw has winner and losers....thats how it works, ive heard people in the past it unfair that top teams get "easier" runs and it should be completely random, people will always find something to complain about

god forbid we might actually get some different teams through to the QF's

 

[bonxie23]

i do find this whole argument a strange hill to die on, especially as an a first topic on the board, any draw has winner and losers....thats how it works, ive heard people in the past it unfair that top teams get "easier" runs and it should be completely random, people will always find something to complain about

god forbid we might actually get some different teams through to the QF's

Of course you are right. More than happy to concede that.

On a separate issue, I assume you must be from Wellington.