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Should the Pumas stay in the RC, for the next seasons. Yes or No? Argue

Superalexmarket

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I think that they´ve a good performance for his first annual tournament participation; they´ll improve their game trought the years. Maybe in 2020 they can aspire to the ***le.
 
Absolutely they should stay in they have at least one result regardless of an oppourtunity tonight, and all of their games except the NZ one were competitive. The atmosphere in the Argentine Stadiums has been fantastic. I really think they've added a new element to the competition.

Lobbe, Hernandez and Roncrero have been amongst the top players in the competition. There are elements to their game that could use improvement particularly goal kicking has been shocking, but I think they are a threat to avoid the wooden spoon even as early as next year. Winning will probably take some time as you suggest. Especially with the Kiwi's being heads and necks above everyone else at the moment.
 
5 years and the All Blacks will lose in Argentina.
South Africa and Australia in the next 2 years.

They need 3 things

- set the pace to the SH teams (I think they will fix it in the nex year)
- fix the attack and kicking problems (just a couple of years of work)
- renewing the team (just a little bit, need of course more time probably)
 
Off course they should stay in the tournament. A bit rude of making such a statement as they only participated once.
 
I've not heard anybody even hinting at reverting to the Tri Nations again. And if they did they'd need their head examined
 
yes, I expect them to win a game next year.

was a bit of a worry to see them drop off over the course of the tournament - I think if Argentina were as good this weekend as they were a few weeks ago they would have beaten Australia - they should have been closer to the AB's as well.

what happens with the NZ, AUS, SA teams is that they actually get better and more accurate as the comp progresses and at the end you get really high quality rugby. I think even much better that world cup finals games.

I think what they need to do primarily is realize they to really compete in a tournament like this they need to seriously up their fitness and discipline.

But for sure 4 teams is better than three and they will improve each year. And it's great for world rugby overall.
 
5 years and the All Blacks will lose in Argentina.
South Africa and Australia in the next 2 years.


They need 3 things

- set the pace to the SH teams (I think they will fix it in the nex year)
- fix the attack and kicking problems (just a couple of years of work)
- renewing the team (just a little bit, need of course more time probably)


Based on what? The progress of Italy is the only real indicator we have toward how they'll adapt and they still haven't beaten England or Ireland in over 10 years! And considering that they have no domestic set up, few if any players in Super Rugby, and no prospects of getting a professional league set up any time soon it could be a long time before Argentina are truly competing. They might pick off the odd win here or there, but no more than that for the foreseeable future.
 
Based on what? The progress of Italy is the only real indicator we have toward how they'll adapt and they still haven't beaten England or Ireland in over 10 years! And considering that they have no domestic set up, few if any players in Super Rugby, and no prospects of getting a professional league set up any time soon it could be a long time before Argentina are truly competing. They might pick off the odd win here or there, but no more than that for the foreseeable future.

No they're not, firstly Argentina are far, far better than Italy and their better players play in the top leagues in Europe. Also with the excitement for rugby in Argentina, did you see and hear the crowds in the grounds for their home games logically extends to Argentinian kids wanting to play and that creates players for the future.

I certainly see at least 1 win for them next year.
 
Based on what? The progress of Italy is the only real indicator we have toward how they'll adapt and they still haven't beaten England or Ireland in over 10 years! And considering that they have no domestic set up, few if any players in Super Rugby, and no prospects of getting a professional league set up any time soon it could be a long time before Argentina are truly competing. They might pick off the odd win here or there, but no more than that for the foreseeable future.


1. Argentina are a lot better than Italy were when they entered the 6 Nations. Italy in 2000 conceded 47 points to Wales, 60 points to Ireland, 59 points to England, 42 points to France and in 2001 conceded an 80 point thrashing to England.

2. Although they didn't win a game, they already are "truly competing" and gave all teams competitive matches. Not "truly competing" means being an easy walkover for teams, that's different from just not winning. That's like saying South Africa aren't "truly competing" with New Zealand.

3. The exposure to a higher standard of rugby more regularly is proven to improve sides. Italy have improved a lot since the results mentioned above, and Argentina should do as well.

4. Argentina's junior U20 sides have improved considerably over the past years, this year they reached the semi final after beating Australia and France. And the Pumas have some good young talent from the past couple of U20 seasons such as (de la Vega, Cubelli, Montero, Cordero, Rodríguez Muedra, Guillemain etc) who will add to their side in the coming years.
 
No they're not, firstly Argentina are far, far better than Italy and their better players play in the top leagues in Europe. Also with the excitement for rugby in Argentina, did you see and hear the crowds in the grounds for their home games logically extends to Argentinian kids wanting to play and that creates players for the future.

I certainly see at least 1 win for them next year.

firstly Argentina are far, far better than Italy

Yes, but the standard of teams they're playing against is going to be far higher than that of the 6 nations. Therefore, I can't see how that point computes. I'd say the standard of Argentine player in comparison to the rest of the RC teams is comparable with the standard of Italian players against the other European teams.

better players play in the top leagues in Europe

So do/did the Italians.

Also with the excitement for rugby in Argentina, did you see and hear the crowds in the grounds for their home games logically extends to Argentinian kids wanting to play and that creates players for the future.

Have those crowds not been there for the past 20 or 30 years? And in any case, my point was that it's going to be at least 10 years before Argentina are truly going to be competitive in the RC. I don't see how having kids excited for the game is going to help them beat South Africa next year.

Let's have a wee reality check. They shipped 50+ points at home to the All Blacks last week. The weather kept the score line down in New Zealand. Had South Africa actually been playing rugby at the start of the tournament I doubt they would have gotten the draw. They lost to a frankly quite pathetic Wallabies team and performance this weekend. That was a game that both South Africa and New Zealand would have won comprehensively. They're still a long way off where they need to be to be in with a chance of winning matches regularly.

Of course this doesn't mean that I don't think they should be in the tournament, just that their chances of winning more than a game or two per year for the next few years are relatively negligible.
 
There is no way they should leave the tournament. If the IRB is seriously about improving and catering the game to the World audience, they need a country like Argentina to be good.

Prediction: The Pumas will beat the All Blacks before the Irish do in this century. ;)
 
Argentina are a great addition to The Rugby Championship and they definitely should remain in it.

However I believe they need a lot more time to truly get up to speed with the rest of the competition. (and to be fair they need to grow the game professionally in their own country, mostly so they can't use that amateur excuse)

Argentina's chance's of winning games have been unfairly over exaggerated. Realistically they will find winning next year much harder than winning this year. Can Argentina live up to the expectations?

Australia will be a mile better than they are now. Phipps probably has a worse pass than the average under 10 half back, whereas Genia is probably the best all round halfback in the world. I'd suggest that change alone would be worth a couple of points. Add the rest of their monumental injury list and I can't see Argentina beating them. Aussie convincingly 2 nil.

South Africa has a new coaching system, new players and a ton of injuries as well. They will be far stronger next year as well. I can't see Argentina getting close to them next year either. 2 losses coming up.

New Zealand nuff said, they aint coming close to them. It will most likely be a couple of cricket scores.
I love the line a few of you's had when Argentina got walloped by The AB's. "ah it's ok, it happens to the best of us remember NZ vs Aus in 1997 blah blah blah?"

Don't expect anything different next year, the big three have found Argentina out a bit. Second year syndrome is common in many sports, once you get past the initial glitz and glamour will the Argentinian public be so forgiving of mediocrity? I doubt it

Argentina has some good players, but many of their best are on the wrong side of 30 so it will be interesting to watch them evolve in the next few years.
I don't think the older players will improve, it would be hard given their advanced age. At the moment i don't think they are good enough to beat these very strong nations.

To be honest I can't see how Argentina can do better than what Italy has currently achieved in the 6 nations.
To date Italy's record stands at 65 games played for 9 wins with 1 draw and 55 losses.
How can Argentina beat this? The country still plays Amateur football for god sakes.

Do people recall Italy actually won a game in their first season in the big league? They then crashed back to reality for the next decade plus.
 
Well, to answer the question posed at the start of the thread, of course tbey should remain ... it's great for Pumas rugby, getting more quality test matches, on a regular basis, and, their inclusion has freshened up the old tri-nations, adding a new dynamic to the comp, with a different style of play.

As to how competitive they'll be (in terms of wins), and how soon that will happen, i'm sure they'll pick up a win or two before the next RWC, and may even be in with a show to win the whole RC in 2015, as sides seem to use the comp to develop their RWC squad (unfortunately)

This is by no means, is meant to be disrespectful to Argentine rugby ... their team management stated that it's about team development in the short term.
 
Argentina are a great addition to The Rugby Championship and they definitely should remain in it.

However I believe they need a lot more time to truly get up to speed with the rest of the competition. (and to be fair they need to grow the game professionally in their own country, mostly so they can't use that amateur excuse)

Argentina's chance's of winning games have been unfairly over exaggerated. Realistically they will find winning next year much harder than winning this year. Can Argentina live up to the expectations?

Australia will be a mile better than they are now. Phipps probably has a worse pass than the average under 10 half back, whereas Genia is probably the best all round halfback in the world. I'd suggest that change alone would be worth a couple of points. Add the rest of their monumental injury list and I can't see Argentina beating them. Aussie convincingly 2 nil.

South Africa has a new coaching system, new players and a ton of injuries as well. They will be far stronger next year as well. I can't see Argentina getting close to them next year either. 2 losses coming up.

New Zealand nuff said, they aint coming close to them. It will most likely be a couple of cricket scores.
I love the line a few of you's had when Argentina got walloped by The AB's. "ah it's ok, it happens to the best of us remember NZ vs Aus in 1997 blah blah blah?"

Don't expect anything different next year, the big three have found Argentina out a bit. Second year syndrome is common in many sports, once you get past the initial glitz and glamour will the Argentinian public be so forgiving of mediocrity? I doubt it

Argentina has some good players, but many of their best are on the wrong side of 30 so it will be interesting to watch them evolve in the next few years.
I don't think the older players will improve, it would be hard given their advanced age. At the moment i don't think they are good enough to beat these very strong nations.

To be honest I can't see how Argentina can do better than what Italy has currently achieved in the 6 nations.
To date Italy's record stands at 65 games played for 9 wins with 1 draw and 55 losses.
How can Argentina beat this? The country still plays Amateur football for god sakes.

Do people recall Italy actually won a game in their first season in the big league? They then crashed back to reality for the next decade plus.

This seems so out of place to the rest of your post, which seems to take a delight in knocking back the pumas.

Other than Italy's win that year the rest of their games were hiding's. Argentina held their own in 5 of the 6 matches this year. Many of their struggles this year were due to their own errors and not really being outclassed. While you make some good points about the struggles of South Africa and Australia this year and how they could improve next year, you also make the major assumption that Argentina will remain "in state".( It's also possible the other teams won't be as improved as you suggest either but thats for another time and thread.)

It's entirely possible that the Pumas will field a better squad next year, there was much debate about Phelan's selections and improved goalkicking could have seen them win two matches this year. I don't see them beating the AB's for a while but I think the Boks and Wallabies will find games in Argentina in particular to be tough for some time to come.

I don't think anyone on TRF is expecting the Pumas to win the RC next season, but that they will generally compete in their games at home while keeping a road game or two at respectable margins.
 
Most definitely. They were extremely competitive, and though they didn't come away with a win, the potential was certainly there. That's something for a team in its first major go-round with three of the best in the game. I think the biggest thing is maintaining momentum. Some have already mentioned areas of improvement, and I'd add to that the need to work on their stamina. This was probably the most competitive two months they've experienced, and I think it took its toll towards the end. While NZ seemed to get stronger throughout the competition, it seemed (to me) that Argentina began to tire. Not much, but I didn't see as much fire towards the end as they had in the beginning.

I think they will learn well from this. The experience certainly hasn't hurt their game, and hopefully they will continue to build on what they already have.


das
 
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Don't expect anything different next year, the big three have found Argentina out a bit.



But Argentina has also found them out a bit. And Argentina may be hungry enough to use what they've learned to really take a bite out of one of them next year. The 'big three' have had their moments of glory, and so they may not work as hard at what they've learned from Argentina as Argentina will with what they've learned in turn. It's about drive, and they know they were really close a couple times there...close enough to taste the victory. Let's hope they get the chance to do so next year.


das
 
This seems so out of place to the rest of your post, which seems to take a delight in knocking back the pumas.

Other than Italy's win that year the rest of their games were hiding's. Argentina held their own in 5 of the 6 matches this year. Many of their struggles this year were due to their own errors and not really being outclassed. While you make some good points about the struggles of South Africa and Australia this year and how they could improve next year, you also make the major assumption that Argentina will remain "in state".( It's also possible the other teams won't be as improved as you suggest either but thats for another time and thread.)

It's entirely possible that the Pumas will field a better squad next year, there was much debate about Phelan's selections and improved goalkicking could have seen them win two matches this year. I don't see them beating the AB's for a while but I think the Boks and Wallabies will find games in Argentina in particular to be tough for some time to come.

I don't think anyone on TRF is expecting the Pumas to win the RC next season, but that they will generally compete in their games at home while keeping a road game or two at respectable margins.

Just because they take a while to get up to speed doesn't mean they don't warrant a spot in the competition. I think Alex is realistic 2020 sounds about enough time to start to challenge for the ***le, it is unrealistic that they can challenge by the 2015 world cup. Their players are just plain and simply not good enough, it will take a generation of players built up playing in this competition for them to be successful. That is common sense.

I agree it is an assumption that Aussie and South Africa will improve more, however it would take a brave man to predict anything otherwise.

eg Nick Phipps<will genia="" what="" do="" you="" reckon?="" phipps
<will genia,="" how="" can="" you="" not="" improve="" dramatically?
for Will Genia how could you not improve dramatically?

Also you said no one expects them to win the Championships next season? That's a fair statement, they wont win the Championship it's obvious.
However I think just about all of you expect them to win a game or possibly two. All of you expect them to improve?

My question is why? How will they improve more than the other three teams? It is highly unlikely</will></will>
 
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My question is why? How will they improve more than the other three teams? It is highly unlikely</WILL>

Well, we never know how a team will improve, or regress. Much has to do with team cohesion - how well the players work together. I think NZ is tops in this regard - the team plays so well together that even when they come in with their B or even C game, they still manage to win. And when they come in with their A game, just forget it - they're untouchable. But that cohesion can change in a season - players retire, players get injured - and you can never tell how the new guys will fit in.

But much also has to do with strategy, and - sometimes even more important - kicking. If teams like SA don't get that straightened out by next year, and if Argentina comes in with a few new tricks, I'm guessing they'll take at least a match.

And like I said in my previous post, a lot will have to do with drive. Sometimes great teams take it for granted that they are great, and when they do they often end up on the losing side. I'll give you a for-instance that happened recently in baseball. The [Philadelphia] Phillies were a top team. Practically the best. They seemed unstoppable. A couple years ago they added some of the best pitchers in the league to their bullpen. People were saying that they would waltz away with the World Series. But they didn't, they came up short. Why? Well, while they were strengthening their bullpen, they really didn't put any effort into their bats, and in the end it was the lack of runs that really cost them. Did they learn from it? Obviously not, because this year they didn't even make the playoffs.

Sometimes a team gets 'cocky'. Right now the ones at risk for that are the 'big three', and if that happens then it can very well be to Argentina's advantage. And I suspect if they get one win under their belt, it will not only boost the team AND encourage investors, but it may motivate younger club players to up their game so that they can be called up to play with the big boys.

Of course, I'm only touching on the team's spirit. Coaching, player skill, and strategy of play are also major factors, but sometimes the win (especially in a tight match) often comes down to which side has the determination to succeed.


das
 
First of all, to compare Argentina to Italy, is like comparing Dan Carter to Johnny Sexton, or Sir Graham Henry and Jake White to Pieter De Villiers. Argentina has had much better accomplishments throughout their long tenure in World Rugby. their scrums are feared by all high ranking nations. Nobody fears anything about Italy, except maybe scathing Italian words which they don't understand.

Argentina has been in a World Cup semi-final. They have beaten some of the best nations in the world. They have some of the best players in the world.

Off the top of my head I could name at least 7 Argentine players. Italian players: The Bergamasco twins (and don't ask me their names, I don't know, and don't care).

The argentinians play some of the most enjoyable rugby to watch, they are respectful towards the referee and other players and real gentlemen of the game.

@ Hill-Back-Dallaglio: You are trying to compare apples with oranges and your arguments will continuously fall on deaf ears if you continue with these dumbfounded arguments. You already have a neg rep rating, and like most of us here know, apart from Dizzy, once you're in the red zone, nobody will take you seriously.
 

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